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Garland Bayley

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Re: COURSE PAIRINGS
« Reply #25 on: March 05, 2009, 01:37:52 PM »
Gotta agree with Tom. Seems you have set a pretty low bar with some of your choices in the UK. Certainly if you compare Doak numbers!
"I enjoy a course where the challenges are contained WITHIN it, and recovery is part of the game  not a course where the challenge is to stay ON it." Jeff Warne

Deucie Bies

Re: COURSE PAIRINGS
« Reply #26 on: March 05, 2009, 01:42:46 PM »

I am interested in Mountain Lake/S Dunes.  Do folks think S Dunes is that good?  I mean I am doubting places like Lederach and Tobacco Road and they are awfully good. 



I didn't think Southern Dunes was that great (but from what I have seen, I am not a big Smyers fan), but I was just trying to find a pair for Mountain Lake.  I am surprised that the Portrush/Portstewart recommendation didn't made your list.  I think it is a 2 hour drive, but what about Portrush/RCD?

Sean_A

  • Karma: +0/-0
Re: COURSE PAIRINGS
« Reply #27 on: March 05, 2009, 01:53:52 PM »
Gotta agree with Tom. Seems you have set a pretty low bar with some of your choices in the UK. Certainly if you compare Doak numbers!


Garland - Doak Schmoak.  Keep digging.  California isn't the alpha and omega of the golfing world.  Though isn't there a way to work in Pasa?

Deucie - in my heart of hearts I like the Portstewart/Portrush combo, but many have told me I'm nuts to Portstewart up there and many have said the rough at Portrush rips the soul out of the place.  I'm teetering on sticking it in if I get anymore of these hair brain California ideas.   

Ciao  
« Last Edit: March 05, 2009, 01:56:49 PM by Sean Arble »
New plays planned for 2024: Nothing

Tom Huckaby

Re: COURSE PAIRINGS
« Reply #28 on: March 05, 2009, 01:57:53 PM »
Gotta agree with Tom. Seems you have set a pretty low bar with some of your choices in the UK. Certainly if you compare Doak numbers!


Doak Schmoak.  Keep digging.  California isn't the alpha and omega of the golfing world.  Though isn't there a way to work in Pasa?

Ciao  

The point is not to make CA the alpha and omega of anything.. the point remains that your standards in UK are lower than those for the US.  It seems pretty clear to me.... and also that you are allowing courses only very very very few here will see, whereas there it's simple to access.  Just seems odd to me.  What is the real point of this?  Courses one can really play, or dreams?

In any case, Pasatiempo pairs with Olympic Club Lake, or Stanford.  Each sure as hell meet the UK standards. It may be a little over an hour from SFGC to Pasa but it surely can be done in a day.  If the distance eliminates OClub, substitute Stanford.

TH


Tom Huckaby

Re: COURSE PAIRINGS
« Reply #29 on: March 05, 2009, 02:03:42 PM »
Note also.. I thought it was supposed to be one private, one public.. of course that eliminates all courses at Bandon Dunes (all public, no worthwhile privates within an hour).... also if you do want "at least one public" that basically means any combo of two great public courses counts.. there are a lot of those, particularly at your UK standards... we could change the Monterey area completely for example....

Also you have seriously gone off the cost deep end with Pebble-Cypress.....

You have me very very confused with all of this, Sean.  Maybe best for me to stay out...

 ;D


Garland Bayley

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Re: COURSE PAIRINGS
« Reply #30 on: March 05, 2009, 02:10:07 PM »
Gotta agree with Tom. Seems you have set a pretty low bar with some of your choices in the UK. Certainly if you compare Doak numbers!


Garland - Doak Schmoak.  Keep digging.  California isn't the alpha and omega of the golfing world.  Though isn't there a way to work in Pasa?
...

What I'm saying is that if you haven't seen Gold Mountain Olympic and Chambers Bay, then how can you eliminate them from your pairings when you've got Sligo/Donegal etc in there?

Both are GD best new from year of intro and I like them. Isn't that enough?
ABTW they are not in CA.
"I enjoy a course where the challenges are contained WITHIN it, and recovery is part of the game  not a course where the challenge is to stay ON it." Jeff Warne

Garland Bayley

  • Karma: +0/-0
Re: COURSE PAIRINGS
« Reply #31 on: March 05, 2009, 02:11:52 PM »
Tom, the criteria was at least one public. That means Pasa/PB qualify as a pairing.
"I enjoy a course where the challenges are contained WITHIN it, and recovery is part of the game  not a course where the challenge is to stay ON it." Jeff Warne

Tom Huckaby

Re: COURSE PAIRINGS
« Reply #32 on: March 05, 2009, 02:13:57 PM »
Tom, the criteria was at least one public. That means Pasa/PB qualify as a pairing.


I get that.  I just question it's worth.

But of course I am missing the point of all of this... the inconsistent standards, the access issues, the care for cost some places but not others.....

Oh well.

 ;D

Sean_A

  • Karma: +0/-0
Re: COURSE PAIRINGS
« Reply #33 on: March 05, 2009, 02:16:35 PM »
Huckabilly

I don't mind two publics or in some way accessible for all as a pairing.  My intitial posts does read "at least one...".  

Furthermore, you of all people should know by now that I don't tow no line about championship courses.  I call of them as I see them and it happens that imo opinion many don't stack up with what I am looking for in the game.  You should also know that price is important to me, but some of these uber expensive courses are good value even at the crazy prices they charge.  Pebble is one of those that many seem happy to pay for so I can give it a pass for this bit of casual "research" I am doing for a mate.  Though I do have to admit that given the limitations coming up with 18 compelling pairs is much harder than I thought it would be - that is why I came to this site. 

Ciao
« Last Edit: March 05, 2009, 02:22:11 PM by Sean Arble »
New plays planned for 2024: Nothing

Tom Huckaby

Re: COURSE PAIRINGS
« Reply #34 on: March 05, 2009, 02:21:35 PM »
Sean:

OK.  We're closer.  Can you now also settle the issue of standards?

Some of those UK ones sure don't seem great to me in the way that you are requiring for the US ones.  That is, Rustic counts compared to Dunbar but surely does not compared to Dornoch.  Pebble/Cypress means two out of the best 10 courses on this planet.  It is confusing what ought to count and what does not.

 So is it one fantastic / must play + one maybe a little less so?

Your UK inclusions are what have thrown me for a loop, and were the basis for my first submissions.

Curious too.. would you really pay $500 to play Pebble?  You struck me as more among the camp of that being no way, no golf course is worth that.

One more thing - the access issue is very very real.  Are we to assume your mate can get on any private club here with zero issues?

If so we need a public near each of Pine Valley and Augusta....

And one gets added FOR SURE:

Sand Hills + Wildhorse

TH

Garland Bayley

  • Karma: +0/-0
Re: COURSE PAIRINGS
« Reply #35 on: March 05, 2009, 02:23:58 PM »
If you are talking about "compelling" and price. PB is not compelling at that price IMHO.
To read Huckaby it seems it is marginally doable at that price for him. ;)
"I enjoy a course where the challenges are contained WITHIN it, and recovery is part of the game  not a course where the challenge is to stay ON it." Jeff Warne

Tom Huckaby

Re: COURSE PAIRINGS
« Reply #36 on: March 05, 2009, 02:26:24 PM »
If you are talking about "compelling" and price. PB is not compelling at that price IMHO.
To read Huckaby it seems it is marginally doable at that price for him. ;)


There's no way on god's green earth I pay $500 for Pebble.  And I firmly believe it's one of the top 5 courses on earth.

That's where price issues get strange... people's standards are so different... $500 expenditures on one round of golf mean divorce for me; for others they are not looked at as any big deal at all.  But it also comes down to I have played PB many times for a lot less than that.  Not sure what I'd do if I had never played it. 

The access issue is more important than the cost, anyway.... Sean does need to clarify that.  Is this to be a real recommendation to a real friend?  And if so, can I have his name for future access wh*re use?

« Last Edit: March 05, 2009, 02:32:11 PM by Tom Huckaby »

Sean_A

  • Karma: +0/-0
Re: COURSE PAIRINGS
« Reply #37 on: March 05, 2009, 02:39:11 PM »
Sean:

OK.  We're closer.  Can you now also settle the issue of standards?

Some of those UK ones sure don't seem great to me in the way that you are requiring for the US ones.  That is, Rustic counts compared to Dunbar but surely does not compared to Dornoch.  Pebble/Cypress means two out of the best 10 courses on this planet.  It is confusing what ought to count and what does not.

 So is it one fantastic / must play + one maybe a little less so?

Your UK inclusions are what have thrown me for a loop, and were the basis for my first submissions.

Curious too.. would you really pay $500 to play Pebble?  You struck me as more among the camp of that being no way, no golf course is worth that.

One more thing - the access issue is very very real.  Are we to assume your mate can get on any private club here with zero issues?

If so we need a public near each of Pine Valley and Augusta....

And one gets added FOR SURE:

Sand Hills + Wildhorse

TH

Huckster

Yep, its more or less at least one course must be very, very special and the other must also be very good - a course you would recommend to someone traveling to the broader area.  Others may not care so much for all of my choices and thats ok.  But they are courses I would happily go back to.  

So far as Pebble goes, I spose its a bit like Sunny and Swinley.  These aren't really my favourites (hence the reason I went with Woking and Addington in London), but I like them and I have to come up 18 pairs!  Its hard to do under these limitations.  So just chalk Pebble up as a sacred cow in my case cuz I have to give such a world famous course the benefit of the doubt if I haven't played it.  You are right though, I won't pay $500 or whatever it is to play Pebble.  I can think of better ways to spend that sort of dosh.  The harsh thing about this money deal is I was stung badly again (Pinehurst being the first real slap in the face green fee).  I told my bro in law I would play The Ocean Course when we visit Kiawah.  I had no idea it was $350 a pop!  I was thinking $200ish and they should be grateful to get that.   He sort of arranged things around this round so I couldn't back out - doh!

Yes, Wildhorse definitely interests me and I would certainly use it with Sand Hills as a great pairing.

Isn't there someway to get Augusta in?  How far is Longshadow from Augusta?  


UPDATE

Woking and Addington
Dornoch and Brora
Pennard and Southerndown
Ennsicrone and Carne
Sligo and Donegal
North Berwick and Dunbar
CPC and Pebble
Bethpage and NGLA  (Are these within an hour?)
Crystal Downs and Arcadia (is Kingsley within striking distance?)
Pacific and Bandon Dunes (surprised this wasn't picked up earlier - Old Mac gonna replace one of these?)
Riviera and Rustic (can Rustic really stand on its own - is it really a player?)
Sandwich and Deal (not sure about Deal, but I will consider it because it seems a shame for Sandwich to be left out - is Rye within an hour?Huh??)
Sunny Old and Swinley
Sand Hills and Wildhorse



Ciao
New plays planned for 2024: Nothing

Kalen Braley

  • Karma: +0/-0
Re: COURSE PAIRINGS
« Reply #38 on: March 05, 2009, 03:11:38 PM »
I still think Pasa and MPCC could be used a pair, they are within an hr of each other.

If not then MPCC and San Juan Oaks.  ;)

Tom Huckaby

Re: COURSE PAIRINGS
« Reply #39 on: March 05, 2009, 03:14:04 PM »
Sean:

Ok, I shall bow out.  Your standards remain mystifying to me... and you have not clarified the access issue.  Honestly I do not know what to recommend.

But hell you surely don't need me anyway!

TH

ps to Kalen - if the ones I mentioned don't count than SJO sure as hell doesn't either!  But maybe that was the intent of the wink?  I also thought MPCC was already taken.... well guess not given SPyglass apparently doesn't count... wonder why I am mystified?

Kyle Harris

Re: COURSE PAIRINGS
« Reply #40 on: March 05, 2009, 03:16:20 PM »

I am interested in Mountain Lake/S Dunes.  Do folks think S Dunes is that good?  I mean I am doubting places like Lederach and Tobacco Road and they are awfully good. 



I didn't think Southern Dunes was that great (but from what I have seen, I am not a big Smyers fan), but I was just trying to find a pair for Mountain Lake.  I am surprised that the Portrush/Portstewart recommendation didn't made your list.  I think it is a 2 hour drive, but what about Portrush/RCD?

Be adventurous. Pair Mountain Lake with Lekarica (Stiles and Van Kleek).

Kalen Braley

  • Karma: +0/-0
Re: COURSE PAIRINGS
« Reply #41 on: March 05, 2009, 03:18:26 PM »
Your right Tom,

I had totally forgotten that the MPCC/Spyglass combo was rejected.  If this is true, then the standards must be incredibly high because either of those two at MPCC paired with SpyGlass would be a dream day.

P.S. I also agree that Pasa with HMB/Stanford/Cal Club/Olympic certainly would qualify for a list like this.

Tom Huckaby

Re: COURSE PAIRINGS
« Reply #42 on: March 05, 2009, 03:22:52 PM »
If MPCC/Spyglass is rejected - and I too gathered it was - then Pasa + anything but Pebble or Cypress pretty much is also.  Is MPCC (either course) + Spyglass inferior to any Pasa combination you mentioned?  I sure don't think so....

But then we have N. Berwick + Dunbar on there.... Sligo + Donegal....

Oh well.  As I say it's Sean's list.  Given these eccentricities I just find it odd he wants anyone to recommend additions to it.

TH
« Last Edit: March 05, 2009, 03:25:11 PM by Tom Huckaby »

Mark Pearce

  • Karma: +0/-0
Re: COURSE PAIRINGS
« Reply #43 on: March 05, 2009, 03:50:35 PM »
Sean,

Sunningdale and Swinley work but Berkshire Red and Blue don't?
TOC and Crail
Muirfield and North Berwick
Birkdale and Hillside
Royal Aberdeen and Cruden Bay
Brancaster and Hunstanton
Carnoustie and Panmure
Dornoch and Brora
In June I will be riding the first three stages of this year's Tour de France route for charity.  630km (394 miles) in three days, with 7800m (25,600 feet) of climbing for the William Wates Memorial Trust (https://rideleloop.org/the-charity/) which supports underprivileged young people.

Ken McGlynn

  • Karma: +0/-0
Re: COURSE PAIRINGS
« Reply #44 on: March 05, 2009, 04:00:53 PM »
A golfing buddy and I actually actually did the following on our first UK junket many years ago when we were in our late 20s. It was an idiotic itinerary and we arrived back home exhausted but we played every course we had targeted (some twice) in 10 days.

Day 1  Arrive Heathrow early am. Play Wentworth West and Sunningdale Old. Drive to Lincolnshire.
Day 2  Play Woodhall Spa. Drive to Ganton. Play Ganton. Drive to Turnberry.
Day 3  Play Turnberry. Drive to Troon. Play Troon. Drive to Gullane.
Day 4  Play twice at Murfield. Play Gullane No.1. (54 hole day) Drive to St. Andrews
Day 5  Play St. Andrews Old. Drive to Carnoustie. Play Carnoustie. Drive to Dornoch.
Day 6  Play twice at Dornoch. Drive to Lytham.
Day 7  Play Lytham & St. Anne's. Drive to Southport. Play Birkdale. Drive to Liverpool.
Day 8  Play Hoylake. Drive to Tadworth. Play Walton Heath. Drive to Sandwich.
Day 9  Play twice at St. George's. Drive to Heathrow.
Day10 Fly home.

19 rounds of golf in 10 days, all Open rota courses plus other top-rated courses, and one beaten up Vauxhall rental car returned. Cost if I remember correctly was $2500 in the mid 80s.


David Stamm

  • Karma: +0/-0
Re: COURSE PAIRINGS
« Reply #45 on: March 05, 2009, 04:17:10 PM »
CPC and PB

Spyglass and MPCC Shore

Rustic and Riviera

Palos Verdes and LACC

Soule Park and Valley Club

Montauk and Maidstone

Tallgrass and GCGC

Cedar Crest and Colonial

Barona Crek and Rancho Santa Fe

...I'll try and think of some more....

"The object of golf architecture is to give an intelligent purpose to the striking of a golf ball."- Max Behr

Tom Huckaby

Re: COURSE PAIRINGS
« Reply #46 on: March 05, 2009, 04:21:18 PM »
CPC and PB

Spyglass and MPCC Shore

Rustic and Riviera

Palos Verdes and LACC

Soule Park and Valley Club

Montauk and Maidstone

Tallgrass and GCGC

Cedar Crest and Colonial

Barona Crek and Rancho Santa Fe

...I'll try and think of some more....



David - read above for Sean's standards... most of those won't make it as he has determined this... also several have been already stated... some already rejected....

Man I am a hardass today.  I do need to get a life.

 ;D

Dale Jackson

  • Karma: +0/-0
Re: COURSE PAIRINGS
« Reply #47 on: March 05, 2009, 06:00:16 PM »
Ken, I thought I had undertaken some mammoth trips, I now understand I do not know the meaning of that term.  That is a truly impressive accomplishment.  Just the golf is amazing but to add in all the driving!  I hope you had time to see the inside of at least 1 pub.
I've seen an architecture, something new, that has been in my mind for years and I am glad to see a man with A.V. Macan's ability to bring it out. - Gene Sarazen

Ken McGlynn

  • Karma: +0/-0
Re: COURSE PAIRINGS
« Reply #48 on: March 05, 2009, 06:19:36 PM »
Ken, I thought I had undertaken some mammoth trips, I now understand I do not know the meaning of that term.  That is a truly impressive accomplishment.  Just the golf is amazing but to add in all the driving!  I hope you had time to see the inside of at least 1 pub.

Dale....obviously something had to give with a schedule like that, so sadly that trip was a few pints short of perfect! Rest assured we got our fair share in however!!

Greg Tallman

  • Karma: +0/-0
Re: COURSE PAIRINGS
« Reply #49 on: March 05, 2009, 06:32:13 PM »
The Ocean Course at Cabo del Sol & The Dunes Course at Diamante Cabo San Lucas

Of course we'll have to sneak on a not yet finished Dunes Course but that would be half of the fun.  ;)

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