Prestwick 2020 Open - course layout WIP

[Ben Stephens]

Dear All,

This thread is an extension on the British Open rota thread but solely on Prestwick. I have to admit that I have never played the course but have seen so many images and great comments from others. It is an historic Open course but I believe if they seriously wanted another Open there would have to be major changes to the layout - for many reasons such as length, difficulty, spectator movement, 18th hole grandstand space etc etc.

I have noted that Adrian Stiff suggested 2 hole north of 10 and 11 by getting rid of 14 and 15 - the benefits is that the current layout is kept but 2 holes will be redundant at a time. I believe that every golf course evolves sometimes for the better or worse. But we cannot ignore Prestwick as there are lots of good holes.

I have done a quick sketch of a course layout work in progress in which I believe will make it very suitable and give the club a much more likely chance of having the Open back. I understand a number of you have played the course it would be useful to have some feedback.

PRESTWICK 2020 COURSE LAYOUT MASTERPLAN (WIP)



The new layout could increase the course length to over 7500 yards which is more suited to 21st century standards. Here is a very brief statement of each hole below:

Hole 1 - Existing Hole 1
Hole 2 - Existing Hole 2
Hole 3 - New Hole (design to be resolved)
Hole 4 - Existing Hole 7
Hole 5 - Existing Hole 8
Hole 6 - Existing Hole 9
Hole 7 - Existing Hole 6
Hole 8 - New tee to existing Hole 17 green
Hole 9 - Existing 18th tee to new green

Hole 10 - New tee to existing 3rd green - longest par 5 in Open history!! (dreaming!)
Hole 11 - Existing Hole 4 (fairway adjusted)
Hole 12 - New Hole (design to be resolved)
Hole 13 - New tee to existing Hole 5 green eliminates blind shots.
Hole 14 - Existing Hole 10
Hole 15 - Existing Hole 11
Hole 16 - Existing Hole 12 (fairway adjusted)
Hole 17 - Existing Hole 13 (fairway adjusted)
Hole 18 - New tees to enlarged 14th green closer to clubhouse - (Maintenance shed relocated)

I believe this 2 loops of nine will please the R and A, frees up area to improve spectator movement around and within the course as well as improving the course.

Cheers

Ben

[Chris Ord]

ben,

i see you removed the "himalayas" par 3 (formerly #5), as the pros would never allow for a fully blind par 3.  how do you see #8 (formerly #17) playing?  will it still be the original "alps" hole with the blind approach over the hill? 

[Anthony Gray]

  WOW!! I love the idea. The Open returning to its roots would be wonderful. If they can have it at Troon they can have it at Prestwick.

  Great Job.........  Anthony

[Ben Stephens]

Here is the current layout to get better understanding.



A blind par 4 is more acceptable to the pros and R and A there are a couple on many open courses but never a par 3!! Hunstanton's 14th is probably quite similar to the 5th at Prestwick. I would keep the blind shot on New 8th / Existing 17th but not to use it on the penultimate hole.

Ben

[Ben Stephens]

An old thread on Prestwick pre 1833 FYI

http://golfclubatlas.com/forum/index.php/topic,31220.0.html

[Chuck Brown]

That is some really intersting work you've done.

And Number 1 just became the all-time scariest opening hole in the history of major golf... presuming it is played like Number 10 at Riviera...
Otherwise, they will all tee off with 7i...

[Ian Andrew]

Ben,

I know (or at least hope) this is strictly an intellectual exercise done for fun – but what scared me was I originally thought it wasn’t. For perspective - I learnt more about architecture from Prestwick than just about any other Scottish course. There are places that are sacred and Prestwick to me is one of them.

There is no shame in being a former host of The Open that can no longer host the Championship. There is great shame in defacing a masterpiece just to try and host it one more time.

[Jeff_Brauer]

With all those changes, would it really be bringing the Open back to Prestwick?

[Bill_Yates]

Jeff
You are 100% correct.  It is an interesting remodel but it would no longer be Prestwick.  I can't believe the members (or any golf historian) would put up with it for one minute.

Hey, how about a mustache on the Mona Lisa?

[mike_beene]

Can you imagine the wild driving pros ducking and dodging on the last four holes.That is as tight and exposed golf I have played,with TOC being second.I say play the course as it is.Put a big grandstand in the parking lot and people cpould see several holes.Great 4 hole playoff set up.Also,there is a lot of spectator room out on the course. Much more than St Andrews.

[Carl Johnson]

Dear All,

. . . I have to admit that I have never played the course but have seen so many images and great comments from others. . . .

My understanding is that Prestwick today is not the Prestwick of the Opens.  Still, how do you justify elimination of #3, the Cardinal with it's famous bunker, reportedly (as I recollect) the inspiration for Pete Dye's railroad tie work?  (Though apparently retained -- the bunker, that is -- as part of  your new # 10, the dogleg in # 3 is also central to its challenge.)  Do your plan, then go play the course and re-evaluate your work.  That would be fun for you.  (This is all in fun, isn't it?)

[Tony_Muldoon]

Great Fun Ben, like you Ive never payed the course but it's in my top 3 of 'desires' (er golf ones at least).  I suspect I'll join the naysayers once I do but... its cool to see someone do a litttle more than just throwing out a few wild words on here.  Nice one.

[Doug Siebert]

I can't imagine that much changing around to the course.  I could see that the Himalayas (#5) would be problematic for an Open (though it would sure be fun to hear what ordinary golfers who have never been exposed to that sort of hole would say about it)

But I'd be willing to live with a change that eliminated #5 as it is today if you could find a routing that keeps the Cardinal (#3) exactly as is.  I think it would make one hell of a crazy par 4 that would flummox the pros.  Do they drive up top for an easy approach and risk getting stuck in the deep rough, or do they play short of the Cardinal as close to the right edge of the fairway as they dare, and play a 200-220 yard blind approach to a firm green?  On any given day the answer may be different depending on the wind.

I would also like to see a routing that could make #1 play on the back nine, ideally around the 12th or 13th hole.  Who wouldn't want to see Tiger two down at the 13th tee pull out driver and go for it, knowing his propensity to miss wide right with his driver could put the ball on the train tracks and out of contention, but hoping to knock one on the green leaving makeable putt to tie for the lead...

Can anyone superimpose the original 12 hole layout the first dozen Opens were played on over the current layout so we can see how much it has already changed since the gutty days?  I'm loathe to fool around with some of the holes, but a few are pretty weak holes that no one would really miss - its just that the Cardinal is definitely not one of them.  But I could live with say 4 or 18 being totally changed, just to pick on a couple weaker holes...

[Chris Kane]

I spent an afternoon with a dozen senior members (including a number of former Captains) in 2006 - I could safely say that the Club doesn't want to host the Open.  They are more than content with their place in history as it stands.

[Ben Stephens]

Dear GCA,

I forgot to say is just an exercise to see whether the course layout of Prestwick can be modernised to host an Open Championship in the 21st century.


Doug,

Here is the image of the original 12 hole layout pre 1883 from another thread the holes were all over the place but the new 10th Ive proposed is almost on a similar line to the original 1st hole which in those days a very long par 5 and Young Tom Morris got an eagle which was very rare at the time.




Ian,

I know a lot of people would not want to change the golf course as it is especially the famous Cardinal, Alps, Narrows and Cardinal's Back have been eliminated in this plan. I would not really touch the course as it is I am just investigating the possibilities.

The new 3rd could be based on the 'original' Cardinal hole and the Cardinal bunkers used for the 2nd shot on the new rollercoaster 10th hole like a large version of Hell bunker. Some of the new holes or existing holes have been improved by freeing up the space around the course as well as increasing the safety of golfers.

Many other Open course changed their layout a lot to keep the course up with the pace of the game over time. Birkdale, Muirfield, Royal St. Georges etc but Prestwick did not change at all and its one of the top courses on my must play list


Carl,

I thought Brancaster was also a big influence to Pete Dye's work as there are loads of railway sleepers in bunkers. The 9th hole is very similar to a lot of Dye holes as the sleepers bulkhead up the green area away from the marshes.

[Adrian_Stiff]

Ben - Nice try. As mentioned by others, it is a bit too radical to truly be Prestwick and in your scheme you have taken away quite a few of the better holes, you also did not use the land north of 10. I think the hole to the old 17th green would not work as well, the loss of 3 and 5 would be too much IMO.

There may be some very good reason why the land Nrth of 10 can't be used but in 2D it looks like there is enough space for a 530 yarder and a 470 yarder. This allows the removal of 14 and 15. Which in turn frees up a lot of needed space around the clubhouse and creates a practice ground.

Courses do change over time and Prestwick moved from 12 to 18 holes only retaining a couple of originals, when it was changed several greens of todays layout are approached completely differently from the 12-holer.

The 1914 Open did not have the present 11th hole. That hole replaced a short hole between the prsent 6th & 7th. I think for the 1925 Open, the last one. So although I am suggesting change with two new holes, it is not so radical as 16 of the present remain.

The advantages are an increase of 300 yards, so that would take the course to a modern 7000 yards. I think 14 is one of the more average holes and 15 is perhaps too quirky, remember this green is aproached at a completely different angle from the original intent!

Still a few bottlenecks, the 3rd and 16th green area would be a no-go for watchers and a couple of fairways would be one sided for viewing.

There must be some good reason ( perhaps it is pure nostalgia) why the club has never considered this. Ben perhaps you could sketch up my plan with stands etc. Thanks.

[Sean_A]

Ben

I really like the alternate tees for #5.  I see there are a few other holes where this is an option.  Why have you chosen not to create alternate tees there?  For instance, #3 could have a tee just between the grandstand and the burn which may create a drivable par 4.  #6 could have a tee further right radically changing the angle. #11 could have a tee well forward that may create a drivable par 4.  #12 could have a tee much closer to #13 green which would radically alter the angle.  #14 could have a tee further right radically altering the angle.  The extra tees really help with the setup when the wind is right (or wrong depending on your perspective!).  In any case, I think alternate tees is a real shortcoming on many courses that have space for them.



Ciao

[Ben Stephens]

Here is another option - the whole layout is kept but the Open course would start at Hole 9 and finish on Hole 8



Adrian,

I will do another sketch later on tonight based on your comments - The original first hole could be recreated then hole 17 would be hole 2, 18th - 3rd, 1st - 4th etc. Also the last hole could go to the original green and the maintenance shed being relocated - I believe this this would work but it does not have the 2 x 9 hole loops favoured by the R and A

[Gary Slatter]

Even though this exercise is just for fun the whole thought of it is scary! 
Prestwick is absolutely perfect right now, a museum that allows participants with new equipment to challenge a historic course.
Sorry Ben. I can't imagine the changes.

[Adrian_Stiff]

Gary- I do understand where you are coming from however, consider just the loss of the 14th and the 15th, with two holes substitued after the 10th and remember these two holes could still be good holes. The 14/15 loss relieves valuable space, the loss of 15 frees much space around the 18th. Prestwick has already undergone changes even since the initial 18 hole routing, Troon has undergone major changes, Carnoustie made changes to get the Open in 1931, Birkdale made the new 12th for the 1965 and have lengthened holes with new greens, Hoylake the same. Lytham's 12th is fairly new, St georges, changed several holes from 1949 to 1981. So it's maybe not so revolutionary.
I loved Prestwick, although I did think the 15th bordered 'unfair' the fairway is crazy narrow and that green is just too much.

Doug- I think the club have tried a re-numbering starting 15-16-17-18-1-2 etc...ie the first is hole 5. It may have been in an Amateur Championship.

Ben- I don't think the R & A worry about two loops, Birkdale and Muirfield are the only two of nine on the current rota. I did hear that they were considering playing the Open in future in morning and afternoon blocks (as normal tour events), but they would just bus everyone to the 10th tees in that event.

[Chris Ord]

this may be off the topic of this particular thread, but i wonder how the pros would do on the current prestwick.  they'd have no problem with the length, but would the alps and himalays keep them in check.  and, of course, there's the elements.  when i played there, it was about 50 degrees fahrenheit with horizontal rain.  i don't know who is playing well in that weather.

[Adrian_Stiff]

Chris - I think they would murder it; The 1st would be a mere pitch, nothing tough about 2, The third would be a mid iron going in, They play t numbers so the 5th would be not a big problem, 12, 16 and 18 are fairly easy birdies, 14 probably too. Prestwick's main defence would be the greens, the sea headrig hole is very hard, there are others too that are hard to get close with the approach. Wind is another matter, but we have seen the wind at next door Troon. I think to the best players as it stands Prestwick has only 2 or 3 holes that are not gimme pars, Troon might have 6 or 7.

[john_stiles]

Would agree with Gary.  Too hard to imagine what would be required.   Prefer not to even go through the exercise lest a GCA expert show how easy it might be to move bunkers and tees and make it work with tented village, etc.

Better to study Troon or elsewhere and figure how they can continue to monkey with it and make it work for next event.

[Mark_Rowlinson]

Ben, You've clearly got talent. Could you apply your talents to giving us another course in the south of England (south of Chester and the Wash) capable of hosting the Open. Burnham and Berrow, Saunton, Hunstanton (OK, that's east of the Wash!), Hayling, Royal Guernsey....leave no sod unturned! And don't forget the Welsh!

[James Boon]

Ben warned me he was going to start up this thread, and I have to admit that I'd been thinking of doing something similar in the wake of the Open Rota thread, as there are lots of reason for or against certain venues but I thought discussing the architectural possibilities of these courses would be more fun! I just didn't have the time to get something started so cheers Ben. I love what you are trying to do with this thread!

Ben, You've clearly got talent. Could you apply your talents to giving us another course in the south of England (south of Chester and the Wash) capable of hosting the Open. Burnham and Berrow, Saunton, Hunstanton (OK, that's east of the Wash!), Hayling, Royal Guernsey....leave no sod unturned! And don't forget the Welsh!

Mark,

Though he probably hasn't had a chance to mention it much on this site, Ben is Welsh through and through so I fully expect Royal Porthcawl to be his next effort!

Cheers,

James

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