The greens at Chamber's Bay

[Anthony Gray]

  Ian,

  Critism is part of life. We all have to deal with it from time to time. Tom Yost had no malice in his post. I'm sure the super at Chambers Bay is a big boy and has peace with what ever is said.

  The fact remains that there is a problem with the greens at Chambers Bay. And if you are the super the buck stops with you even if the problem is no fault of your own. I am sure in time every thing will be fine with those greens. The grrens are not bad because Tom Yost shared what he was told. He did not make up what he was told.

  Anthony

[Adrian_Stiff]

That picture of the 4th green shows dramatic wear in several places due to the green being small and having a narrowed walk off. There may be other factors, but the problem could have been helped with a larger green. if some greens are performing okay, it is not the imported mix unless there are some construction issues. If some greens are performing okay, it is largely not a bad superintendent issue.

Adrian,

What size is the green?

Not sure Brian, but it looks narrow and the turn areas look difficult.  The returfing around the green looks as if it could be sand build up and/or sharp mower turns. Maybe someone knows the greensize\and measurements. i'll go check the website.
That bit we are looking at is just 13 yards deep, so take away the 3 yard band and you have 7 yards of 'difficult' pinning area, even worse that is the direct route to the next tee with all areas dictating the walk to it. I would say this is a design error that could easily be rectified.
Does anyone know the condition of the leftside and front areas of this green?

[Tom_Doak]

Ian L:

Since you chose to drag me into this subject, I'll tell you what I think.  I think you're a wimp.

People come on here ALL THE TIME to question stuff I've built in the past.  The fairway grasses at Apache Stronghold ... conditioning at Apache or High Pointe ... the financial status of Beechtree ... the financing of Barnbougle ... etc.

Occasionally those questions are inappropriate in a public forum, because they're someone else's business.  More commonly they're entirely innocent questions from people who just want to understand something.  In either case, that is one of the reasons I'm on here, to address questions appropriately and not have people speculate publicly [i.e. talk out of their asses] about stuff they don't understand.

Rarely does anyone ever call me beforehand to ask me in private about something because they don't want to damage my reputation.  And I'm not scared that they MIGHT damage my reputation, because I can handle questions just fine, and I'm willing to admit mistakes when I've made them.

So, I find your post above somewhat misguided.  If someone is talking out of their ass about calibrating seeders, which they know nothing about, call them on it.  But DON'T try to mystify the subject, or suggest that all of it is beyond anyone's comprehension, or (worse yet) imply that the subject is off-limits here, because that's really up to Mr. Morrissett, and he is just as likely to decide you're full of b.s. as I just did.

I do not believe for a second that the superintendent of Chambers Bay has his job in jeopardy because of ANYTHING written on Golf Club Atlas.  After all, for starters, his boss (indirectly) is Josh Lesnik, from Kemper Sports, who participates here and knows as well as anybody what value this discussion has (if any).  Moreover, he's not the guy who spec'd the fescue turf or designed the greens -- he's just the guy who has to try and maintain them against the onslaught of success the course has enjoyed.

But if I were that superintendent, I would be talking to my bosses and asking them to let me come on here and explain what's going on, honestly and succinctly, which would defuse the situation and make him more a part of the club.  The absolute LAST thing he should be doing is letting another superintendent run cover for him by suggesting that we are all a bunch of nitwits who don't understand anything about golf or turf, and that questions about golf course conditions are not appropriate for this web site.  You're not a heart surgeon, dude.

Thanks for letting me get that off my chest.

[Ian Larson]

Brian,

The green is around 7000 square feet using google planimeter.




Tom,

 

(wimpy emoticon)

[Ian Larson]

Tom,

If I am a "wimp" or "misguided" for standing up for a superintendent in a thread that was started based off of a rumor of him completely screwing up, then so be it. Call me names like "wimp" or "misguided" all you want. I will always stick up for fellow superintendents everyday on this website when called out like that publicly. If you dont like that then dont read my god damn posts.

A golf course architect is an artist. Artists get criticized, their artwork gets criticized. Art and criticism go hand in hand. But their is a HUGE difference between a golf course architect getting his design work criticized and a golf course superintendent being accused of screwing up his seeding calibration by 50%. Screwing up a seeding rate by 50% is a HUGE deal, screwing up a seeding rate by 50% is not something that just receives some "constructive criticism".

You know just as well as I that the seeding and grow-in stage of a new golf course is CRUCIAL. There is very little room for error. There is a window in place for the seeding to be done so that the greens can be established and ready for play as soon as possible. If a superintendent fucks up and only puts the seed down at half the rate, that could be DISASTEROUS to the entire project and its opening date. This is a serious thing, so serious that it could cost someone their job.

If a super on one of your projects seeded the course at only half the rate and it affected the timeline for the entire project. Would you just have some "constructive criticism" for him. Would his boss just have some "constructive criticism"? No. That mistake has a huge affect on the rest of the project, especially financially. If greens arent ready for regular play because they were seeded at half rate that means revenue cant come in to start paying for the project as planned. Thats not something that just gets "constructive criticism", thats something that could get a "constructive pinkslip".

Im not saying, nor never have, the supers job is on the line at Chambers. Nor do I have any personal ties to him. Im not on here sticking up for him personally. Im sticking up for supers in general by saying that a thread about the super completely screwing up, which cannot be supported or not, is not appropriate. And I can personally say that members at clubs do read threads on here and they do take that back to the locker room, GCA.com is not its own planet that we live on. It does have an effect in the political clublife. Thats why someone should think first before starting a thread like this. Especially when it involves an accusation of someone making a HUGE mistake.



If your bikini underwear are all in a tizzy because I used you as a clearly prefaced hypothetical example then I apologize for that. But I only used you because you are a respected member of GCA. And my point was to show that I dont think anyone on here would start a thread that was throwing you under the bus for making a huge mistake because you are respected on here. But nobody really cares about the common superintendent, well most, otherwise a thread wouldnt have been started throwing him under the bus.

This isnt about criticzm towards a design, conditioning, turf type selection. This is about a thread calling out an alleged mistake that was purely heresay and unsupported.


You mentioned that...

"Moreover, he's not the guy who spec'd the fescue turf or designed the greens -- he's just the guy who has to try and maintain them against the onslaught of success the course has enjoyed."

                             ....no shit. But hes the guy that coordinated the seeding. Hes not just there to maintain. He was hired there to ensure a
                                 successful seeding and grow-in before maintaining it.


"But DON'T try to mystify the subject, or suggest that all of it is beyond anyone's comprehension, or (worse yet) imply that the subject is off-limits here, because that's really up to Mr. Morrissett, and he is just as likely to decide you're full of b.s. as I just did."

                             ....I havent mystified anything on this subject or acted in an elitist manner. Ive expressed my feelings about the nature
                                 of how the thread was started. Golf maintenance or conditioning or agronomics is not off-limits on here nor have
                                 I tried to express that. But theres a difference between discussing those topics and throwing a specific super under
                                 the bus without having the facts.

                                 If I am full of bullshit for taking a stance and supporting a fellow superintendent that I feel has basically been
                                 slandered, then send Ran a note and request for my removal. I will proudly step down.

 

[Joe Hancock]

Ian,

Do you know the facts behind the 50% seed rate? I'm asking because I don't know.

If you know, do you know what ramifications that had on the individual or consultant or company that was responsible for seeding?

Thanks.

[Matt Allen]

It is my pleasure to deliver the long awaited response "from the horse's mouth." I know some of you from my nearly nine years at Bandon Dunes as the Operations Manager and others of you from my current post as General Manager at Chambers Bay. To all of you, I want to say thank you for your interest and I hope I do a reasonable job of answering your questions.

First, I would refer you to the previous posts by Tim Nugent and Peter Herreid. Both are well informed and accurate.

Now for some general updates:

We had a very successful 2008 and as many of you have surmised that corresponds to a high volume of rounds for young fescue turf.

In other agronomic news we built and seeded a 20,000 square foot turf nursery last November and we spent innumerable man hours largely erradicating the nearly 160 acre site of weeds, which has contributed greatly to the aesthetic. So far in 2009, we have constructed nine new Championship tees (holes 1, 3, 4, 6, 8, 10, 11, 15, 17) and have awarded a contract to build a new 17-acre practice facility. Most recently, we began playing a temporary green on #4 (picture provided by Mr. Cosgrove) and removing sod from the green, surround and approach in preparation for a renovation which will address the traffic patterns around the green, the size of the green and the severity of slopes in and around the green.

This week and next we will complete our first granular fertillizer application on fairways. Mike Davis will make his third trip in mid-April at which time we will finalize rough lines, narrowing fairways on five or six holes. Once finalized we will follow up with a foliar fertilizer application in the defined rough.

As for the condition of the greens, all of the things I've seen mentioned in your posts are factors (i.e. temperature, shade, traffic, length of grow-in, mowing heights, mowing patterns, etc, etc, etc.) and certainly the immaturity of the fescue is the overwhelming factor. So in addition to being patient, David Wienecke (Certified Golf Course Superintendent) and I continue to collaborate with our friends and fescue experts in Bandon and at the USGA, and we have found that the real key is to manage each green individually. David has devised a comprehensive management plan whereby a green falls in one of three categories of turf health and the cultural practices are customized for each category. In fact, we have categorized certain sections of greens differently in order to give a compromised area the TLC it needs, without giving a stable area more than it needs. Our most compromised green (#4) will undergo a renovation and for the others commonly mentioned (7, 13), we invested in geo-textile fabric covers which we are using nightly to raise soil temperatures and hold moisture for germination. All the while, our off-season sodding efforts are really bearing fruit in the areas of high traffic or mechanical wear. Thanks to tenacity, creativity and agronomic acumen, I firmly believe that we are well on our way to consistent turf conditions.

As for whether or not to book a visit to play Chambers Bay, as long as you come prepared for the greens to be a bit slower than you are used to (not news to any of you who have played on fescue), you will love the experience. Furthermore, I hope each of you will contact me directly (mallen@kempersports.com) if I can ever be of assistance or if you have plans to visit. It would be great to put a face with a name.

I'll try to check back in case there are any other questions I can answer or you can email them to me directly. Also, keep an eye out on our website (www.chambersbaygolf.com) for David's monthly updates. Better still, pay us a visit this year to experience the progress for yourself!

Thanks again for your interest in Chambers Bay.

Matt Allen
General Manager
KemperSports

[Tom Jefferson]

Matt;

That is quite a first post for a newbie!!
Thanks for chiming in and offering a present day status report....it is appreciated whenever anyone on this site offers accurate, objective information, especially concerning turf management.

Best of luck...I'll see you at CB this spring,

Tom

[Adam Clayman]

Matt, I'll second Tom Jefferson's appreciation for clearing up all the little details surrounding the greens at C.B.

No one, that I'm aware of, has ever thrown the super @ CB under the bus. People asked general questions, others mis-characterized those questions as accusatory. That's all. Lou Duran likely nailed the reason for the mis-characterization. Since I an has now said he has no connection, I was wrong in my suspicious comment.

Since it has all led to this fine summation of detailed information, who here could still think threads like this are wrong?

[W.H. Cosgrove]

Thanks Matt.  This has obviously been a frustrating process for Chambers and your staff. 

I want to repeat that with the exception of the greens in question, the rest of the course played great last time out.  If spring ever begins, I look forward to getting out and giving it another go!

[Ryan Farrow]

I'd like to nominate this for the most entertaining thread of the year (without pictures).


.....now waiting for the first person to ask THE question. Yes, that question, the one you know that I know you are thinking of.



And this sort of reminds me of a Bush press conference. No?



Tom Doak. Thanks for your bit. I was thinking the same thing while reading Ian's post, thanks for saving me some time.

[Kalen Braley]

Ryan,

As far as I know, CB never hung a "Mission Accomplished" banner anywhere recently. 

Seriously, I'm not sure what your alluding to but its got my interest now.

[Joe Hancock]

And this sort of reminds me of a Bush press conference. No?

The "FootJoy Classics" thread did that for me......

[Jim Nugent]

Matt, I take it the new championship tees are for the Amateur, and especially the Open.  Are you doing anything else now to get ready for 2015?  What sort of changes do you see in the course during the Open, compared to now? 

This website keeps getting better and better!

[W.H. Cosgrove]

I wanted to take this opportunity to kick this thread back up the list, as on a quick trip past chambers Today, the 4th green looks markedly better than my last trip several weeks ago. 

The 4th temporary green is very green. 

The covers being used on the upper greens are simply folded behind the putting surfaces.  If I have a chance, I will actually grab my camera and sho the improvement to the green since I last documented the 4th in March. 

With a beautiful spring weekend and the new practices, it looks like Chambers might finally have a handle on the problem greens. 

[Richard Choi]

I went out to CB yesterday and had a very nice and relatively dry round on a very gray day.

#4 is undergoing the major renovation mentioned in the letter above. The turf has been cut up in the front left mound area which I suspect will be flattened out to provide a traffic lane via upper part of the green.

#12, #13 are in rough shape. #12 green's front parts are fine since they get more sunlight, but the back part next to the big mounds are very rough and they have patch parts of it with sod. #13 is in similar shape and is about 1/2 sand and 1/2 turf in parts.

Surprisingly, I thought #7 didn't look too bad. But #8 was not looking well. It was also pot-marked with dark grass (I am guessing Poa?) about 1/2 dollar size every foot or so. Most of the other greens looked fine though they are leaving them taller so putting is rough.

The fairways are not consistent. I would say about 1/8 are bare. It is hard to describe, but fairway turfs are in patches, they do not cover the ground consistently. It is nowhere near as nice as it is at Bandon. It doesn't effect the play as much (at least not for this hacker), but US Am players may complain.

Overall,  I am worried. I think if US AM was 2 years away, it probably would be just fine, but it is only 1 year away. I don't know enough about fescue grass to say whether or not they can grow out of it, but I just hope we have a really good summer growing season.

I think it might be prudent to use temp greens for all eastern greens all year...

[Brent Carlson]

Had a chance to play there recently.  The nuts and bolts are there for the course to become good, but it is really far away.  The greeens are much slower than fairways at most courses.  Talking to an employee, the greens are supposed to be a 9 on the stimp by June.

Compared to Erin Hills, a course to which Chambers has been compared, it's light years behind.  EH's greens are in really good shape and are true.  These are probably the worst conditioned greens I have ever played. 

[W.H. Cosgrove]

Had a chance to play there recently.  The nuts and bolts are there for the course to become good, but it is really far away.  The greeens are much slower than fairways at most courses.  Talking to an employee, the greens are supposed to be a 9 on the stimp by June.

Compared to Erin Hills, a course to which Chambers has been compared, it's light years behind.  EH's greens are in really good shape and are true.  These are probably the worst conditioned greens I have ever played. 

What grass on the Erin Hills greens?

[Will Smith]

When I played there in January, the greens were slow but rolled true. Here is the first part of an interview with Matt Allen:

http://punchbowlgolf.com/2009/04/matt-allen-chambers-bay/

[Scott Weersing]

I went out to CB yesterday and had a very nice and relatively dry round on a very gray day.

#4 is undergoing the major renovation mentioned in the letter above. The turf has been cut up in the front left mound area which I suspect will be flattened out to provide a traffic lane via upper part of the green.

#12, #13 are in rough shape. #12 green's front parts are fine since they get more sunlight, but the back part next to the big mounds are very rough and they have patch parts of it with sod. #13 is in similar shape and is about 1/2 sand and 1/2 turf in parts.

Surprisingly, I thought #7 didn't look too bad. But #8 was not looking well. It was also pot-marked with dark grass (I am guessing Poa?) about 1/2 dollar size every foot or so. Most of the other greens looked fine though they are leaving them taller so putting is rough.

The fairways are not consistent. I would say about 1/8 are bare. It is hard to describe, but fairway turfs are in patches, they do not cover the ground consistently. It is nowhere near as nice as it is at Bandon. It doesn't effect the play as much (at least not for this hacker), but US Am players may complain.

Overall,  I am worried. I think if US AM was 2 years away, it probably would be just fine, but it is only 1 year away. I don't know enough about fescue grass to say whether or not they can grow out of it, but I just hope we have a really good summer growing season.

I think it might be prudent to use temp greens for all eastern greens all year...

I thought the fairways were in great condition when I played there last month. There were not any of the bowls filled with divots like I have seen at Bandon Trails and Pacific Dunes. Of course, I thought the fairways were great because i have been playing off of dormant bermuda fairways for the past four months.

What kind of shape is the Home Course in?

[Mike Wagner]

Scott,

THC is usually in exceptional condition.  I routinely make the drive from Seattle as the greens are worth it!!  It's been a couple months, but it was great last time I was there.