The greens at Chamber's Bay

[Tom Yost]

I found this on another golf forum - it was presented as hearsay and without any published support.  I was wondering if any insiders can comment as to its validity ?

"One of the maintenance guys let us in on another secret the other day. Chambers is operated by Kemper Sports which is the same company that operates and owns the Bandon Dunes courses. I guess the head groundskeeper was doing some numbers for Chambers a few weeks ago and found something. He said that a mathematical error caused the seed count for the fescue gress to be underestimated by almost 50%!!!"

[Adam Clayman]

Tom,  That wouldn't necessarily explain why the turf in some areas is better than others, would it?

[Ian Larson]

Did you really have to post something like this? Something you dont know has any validity? Is a public forum the best way to find out?

[Greg Chambers]

Heresay and speculation amongst rumors really sucks in a setting such as this.

[Anthony Gray]

  I was told by a GCA member to hold off on my Chambers Bay trip because of the greens. Thanks Tom for shareing a possible explanation for the greens.

  Anthony

[Bryan Bergner]

Anthony,

My wife and I played there in Jan.
We had a great time the course was fine.  Don't rule out playing it because of this heresay and obnoxious speculation. 
Play and you will enjoy it.

[W.H. Cosgrove]

On another post, I copied the link to the Tacoma News Tribune report of Chambers finances.  They are bucking the trend and operating with a positive cash flow.  The article didn't follow GAAP rules so I don't know whether they are actually making money, but they are more than surviving. 

They reported 37,000 rounds last year.  Which is probably a double edged sword.  Discounted rounds during winter months have boosted rounds but are probably causing wear in some areas. 

Chambers is a bold experiment in this part of the world. As a local taxpayers, I am pleased that they are getting by in this environment.  I played Chambers in November, and while the greens aren't as slick as the Poa we are used to, the course played very well. 

You non-residents come on out and leave some of your hard earned cash at Chambers. 

[Scott Weersing]

I am going to play Chambers Bay on March 20 with Jeff Doerr. I will post a full report on the course and its conditions.

[Garland Bayley]

I am going to play Chambers Bay on March 20 with Jeff Doerr. I will post a full report on the course and its conditions.

We shall look forward to it.

[Richard Choi]

I would take the post with a grain of salt.

I don't think the problem is not with underseeding. If you look at the practice greens they are just about perfect, nice and dense with smooth rolling surfaces.

For whatever the reason, the actual greens on the course have fared worse. Some greens are in need of repair, especially the 4th due to the traffic patterns.

Hopefully, one more summer growing season will make things better.

[Garland Bayley]

Maybe they should start playing the 4th to the alternative 5th green. The alternative 6th tee to the 5th green, and the 6th is where you return to normal.

[Jeff Doerr]

I am going to play Chambers Bay on March 20 with Jeff Doerr. I will post a full report on the course and its conditions.

If the grass in my yard is any indicator, things are starting to grow around here again!

I'm looking forward to the visit as I have not been since the preview round...

[Peter_Herreid]

There's no further speculation necessary about the 4th green...

When I played there on 2/21/09, the temporary green for #4 was being mowed about 75 yds or so back down the fairway--it will be tight up against the waste area/blowout bunker, and it may well be played that way by the public all the way up until the US Am, depending on how the re-do of the 4th green goes.  The re-working of the original 4th green was to have started this week, but I have not been there since the 21st so I don't know if that has happened yet or not...

Really, my overall impression (the last round was my 20th overall since CB opened) about the greens is that almost all of the greens that are not on the huge upslope on the north and east sides of the course are coming along just fine.  Slow, yes, but I was favorably impressed by the greater degree of consistency both between greens and within different sections of a single green...

The "problem" greens are those up on the slope--#12, #13, #4 and #7 (paradoxically, #8 looked just fine to me).  Of those, #12 seems to have improved over the winter, with some variability in grass texture and thickness remaining on the high middle-right "knob", but by and large the green is settling in...

In my opinion, the right decision was made re :#4, and it remains to be seen whether a similar decision will be discussed re: #7 and #13

These are 4 greens out of 18, and the rest of the course is very high on the fun and challenge meter, so I think it would be a shame to pass on seeing Chambers Bay out of some misguided sense that the greens are horrible.  However, I do agree that the price point for out-of-county residents is a challenge, and for the spring/summer fee it would sure be nice to have more uniformity in the greens...

Guess that's why playing it all winter has been such a treat---excellent fun/price ratio!!!

[Scott Weersing]

I am not expecting great greens to putt on at Chambers Bay. I would expect them to be like Bandon. Fun to play but not much to look at.

Back here in Virginia Beach our bent grass greens have been frozen and are very bumpy. Since they haven't been growing, they haven't mowed them or rolled them.

[Lou_Duran]

I played in Oct. on a picture-perfect day.  It was well worth the $75 twilight rate.  Great experience.  The greens ranged from awful to okay, very slow and bouncy, but everything else made up for it.  Unless things have improved greatly since, if you're expecting Bandon-like greens, you will be disappointed.  BTW, dinner at the restaurant was great.  I would like to hear on the new, much narrrower fairway lines that were flagged at the direction of the USGA (reportedly) and were just starting to grow during my visit.

[Josh_Lesnik]

Tom,

Hey, this is Josh Lesnik, I work for KemperSports.  I passed this thread on to our guys at Chambers in hopes that they'll respond, but one of the posts - by Mr. Herried - seems pretty recent and better info then other -  so perhaps they wont respond. 

However, one thing I'd like to add is that you say that KemperSports operates and owns Bandon Dunes.  I just wanted to clarify.  KemperSports does not own Bandon Dunes.  Mike Keiser owns Bandon Dunes and we manage it for/with him. 

Thanks, I hope this helps.

Josh 

[SL_Solow]

For those of you who have read the book Dream Golf, on the making of Bandon, Josh is the good looking young guy who was the on site manager when Mike Keiser was first starting Bandon.  When it comes to issues regarding the management of Golf Course operations, we would all get a lot smarter if he would chip in a little more often.

[Scott Weersing]

Tom,

Hey, this is Josh Lesnik, I work for KemperSports.  I passed this thread on to our guys at Chambers in hopes that they'll respond, but one of the posts - by Mr. Herried - seems pretty recent and better info then other -  so perhaps they wont respond. 

However, one thing I'd like to add is that you say that KemperSports operates and owns Bandon Dunes.  I just wanted to clarify.  KemperSports does not own Bandon Dunes.  Mike Keiser owns Bandon Dunes and we manage it for/with him. 

Thanks, I hope this helps.

Josh 

We are lucky to have Josh as part of our group.

I think more people work for Josh then stating that he works for Kemper Sports. "KemperSports also announced that Josh Lesnik, the company’s president, will continue to focus on all development, operations and marketing activities at Bandon Dunes Golf Resort."

Thanks, Josh for making Bandon a great experience.

Welcome aboard!!

[Brian Walshe]

Played Chambers Bay today.  The greens were pretty much as I expected for young fescue greens, not too different to Barnbougle's greens early on.  They are definitely slow but still very playable.  As mentioned in an earlier post, those greens on the eastern side of the property are the least developed which may have more to do with a lack of morning sun due to the high cliff behind them.  Evidently they now put a tarp over the 7th green at night.

As for the course itself, it's very good and a lot of fun.  Conditions today weren't that pleasant but it was still a very enjoyable days golf.

[Tim Nugent]

One should take into consideration that fescue isn't lke Bent or bermuda.  It is a clump grass (like rye) and grows outward from the middle of the plant.  Bent/bermuda are creeping grasses that send out runners that have nodes that turn into separate plants (although they are connected).  The node will send out its own roots so it will survive as a stand alone plant in the event the runner is cut.  This allows bent/bermuda greens to fill in more rapidly than fescue.  Also, fescue is a drought grass and as such tends to spend it's first yr directing it energy to growing a big root system.  Only after it has done this will it direct energy to leaf growth and expansion.
So, have patience.  Things will eventually come around.  Unfortunately, being a Publicly financed project, they couldn't wait a year before seeing a return on the investment, nor can they shut the place down over the winter month to reduce wear and tear.  Remember, fesuce doesn't handle traffic as well as other grasses and putting alot of traffic on it earliy only adds to the stress.  Winters have shorter days (daylight) which tells the grass to stop growing.  Couple this with reduced rates to encourage more play and the end result is pretty much pre-ordained.

THe ASGCA will be havng its annual meeting out there in the beginning of May.  It is usually held in March/early April.  Since Bruce Charlton is current President and undoubtably wishes to have CB in the best condition possible as he/it will be hosting a rather well informed group, by pushing the meeting off 'til May, do you think he knew that March/April would not be as condusive and a little more springtime would go along way to achieving better conditions?

[Anthony_Nysse]

I just read the “Superintendents Status Report” on the Chambers Bay website. It stated that they are building 9 new tees.”The new tees have added approximately 1 acre of new teeing ground, bringing our total to over 12 acres. “12 acres!!?? Does that not seem excessive? Most golf courses are 3-4 acres of tees, 5 acres at the most….Is that really necessary?

Tony Nysse
Asst. Supt.
Colonial CC
Ft. Worth, TX

[Tom Jefferson]

Anthony; 

While possibly the superintendent at CB could reply more accurately, I think that what adds so dramatically to the total tee area that is mentioned is the fact that the teeing areas on each hole are all one area.........rolling, irregularly shaped ribbons of turf, with changing elevations, all mowed at the same height.  Thus the actual areas where the markers are set is smaller, while the overall area is v. large.

Good comment by Tim Nugent re; fescue growth habits and morphology.

Tom

[Tom_Doak]

Tim:

Perhaps Mr. Charlton just knows that architects won't be as busy this May as in years past, and the weather will be nicer. 

As Brian Walshe points out, most of the greens at Chambers Bay that have caused trouble are the upper greens, which suffer from a lack of morning sunlight, especially in winter.  Usually shade problems are caused by trees rather than a sheer cliff, so it's possible this was overlooked.  At least fine fescue has better tolerance for shade than bentgrass does!

[W.H. Cosgrove]

The greens are under a couple inches of snow this morning, that should keep wear and tear to a minimum!

[W.H. Cosgrove]

After reading the thread about Chambers, I went out yesterday and took a couple of photos.  The snow had melted and the turf seems to be showing some effects of what has been a pretty tough winter here, lots of snow and colder than normal. 

4th green, now closed, clearly showing the wear that has been of issue.  After conversations with the designers, they contend that players are walking up the hill, reaching the green and turning right across the front, where the sod has been placed, and exiting to the 5th tee.  Ther putting surface also shows some stress in the middle. 


and the 4th fairway with the temporary an estimate 225 yards off of the sand tee