[Peter Pallotta]

From what I can tell, the most popular course in my area (for women and men both) is a fairly new and modestly priced 27 hole 'executive course' that very quickly after opening became the 'go to place' for a surprisingly wide range of golfers/skill sets/ages: quite hilly (but compact and walkable), the greens are uniformly good and interesting and roll beautifully, and each 9 features 6 or 7 Par 3s, 2 or 3 Par 4s and 1 short Par 5. The longest Par 3 is about 185 yards from the back, but most are quite a bit shorter than that, and from the forward tees range from about 70 yards (most closer to 90) to about 140 yards (with most around 110); and IIRC only a very few of the Par 4s are over 300 yards from the back - with most around 250-280 and, from the forward tees, 210-230. All of which is to say: I hadn't thought about it before in the context of this thread, but maybe it's not really about 'total yards' (eg under 5000) or about the number of greens in regulation or how many birdie putts there are; instead, maybe it's more about 'the feeling', hole after hole after hole, that one is 'playing golf' ie hitting a full shot *towards* a green, and, just missing, hitting a short/recovery shot towards the *pin*, and then trying to sink a putt in one or two or three strokes on (somewhat) slope-y and contoured and visually engaging greens...throughout the entire round and the whole course.

[Niall C]

IMO the absolute ideal solution is to have a golf course that is designed to be playable by everyone from basically the same place. I once posted a thread on here saying how would course design differ if we had the old rules of golf that you had to tee your ball up within a certain distance of the hole (or at least, everyone had to tee it up in the same area), and I remember Tom D saying that this is one of the lessons of St Andrews. You'd have to abandon the idea of landing areas, and you'd have to get your mind around 'par' being very different for golfers of differing ability.

Now you’re getting to the nub of it. Dr MacK was basically saying the same thing about the rabbit being able to putt his way to the hole if necessary. And it’s not just TOC. When you think about it, most UK classic courses offer something similar in terms of the generally linear shape of the holes with hazards that you can go round rather than have to go over.

Yes it is easier to put the ball up in the air than it was a century ago but if you are a weaker player or coming in from a longer distance with a lower trajectory on your shot you may still wish an open aspect to part of the green at least. That alone might put an end to the move the tee up because the wind is going the wrong way type of thinking.

As a bit of an aside when I read Nicolas’s comment on 4,400 yard ladies tees I thought it was a load of tosh and to be honest still do. I did however do a bit of an exercise looking at the yardages of the courses along the Moray Firth and in the Highlands and most have 3 “tees” of white (men’s medal), yellow (men’s everyday play) and red (ladies and youth play) with a couple of the “championship” courses having also a black tee (championship) and blue tee (anyone who wants to play from half way up the fairway).

Ignoring these latter tees what was evident was that a lot of the courses, according to the card, the yellow tees were roughly about 92% to 95% of the distance of the white, and the red about mid 80’s percent of the distance for the white, meaning that the shortest length off the red tees was nominally about 5,100 yards (from memory). Unfortunately I don’t have the figures to hand but it was striking that there really wasn’t much of a range of percentage distances of yellows and reds compared to the respective whites.

At the end of the day, it’s not about length, it’s about interest and about fun.

Niall

[Pete Lavallee]

Niall,

A 5100 yard course in Scotland with no fairway irrigation plays about the same length as a 4400 yarder here in the US with fairway irrigation.

[Dave McCollum]

Thanks, Garland.  Why does it do that?

[Rick Lane]

We play a lot of "couples" golf, and frequently play men versus women, battle of the sexes.   On our course, the regular par is 71, but for women its 74, so that equalizes it a bit.   We  checked with the USGA, and learned that the way to manage that difference in match play (where par does not matter) is to add three strokes to the womens hcps, which works a bit.    But the thing we notice is that , say from 150 yards out, where we men have a 7 or 8 iron, the women are hitting hybrids, or a five iron.   So it occurs to us that the women should play tees that have them hitting the same clubs.  (Ie in the example above, hit a drive that leaves them 100 yards, when my drive leaves me 150, we both have 8 iron).  Then go in reverse and have their 180 yard drive leave them at 100, where my 225 yard drive leaves me at 150, and its a fair fight.     Yes some women and men can bomb it, but I think the middle of the bell curve is about like this?

Given the above, I see older courses not set up this way, but I do see some newer courses have a set of tees that seems to contemplate this type of math.   Is this how todays Archies think it through?

[PCCraig]

In my experience women don't give a hoot about par.


I think taking 6 shots as opposed to 5 is much better than having to walk forward another 150 yards looking for your tee box which makes the hole short enough to make a "birdie."

[Niall C]

Pete

I take your point, and in a way it’s the point I’m making. Yardage is in a sense irrelevant as it’s about the course, the fun, the challenge and how manageable it is for those playing it. As Pat says, would you not be better playing your way up the fairway than simply walking your way up to the tee ?

Niall

[Kalen Braley]

PC,


I've had the same experience when playing with women too.  But I think its just a coping mechanism from having to hit driver, 3 wood, short iron into so many par 4s...and forget about the par 5s...

[Pete Lavallee]

From my personal experience my wife, a 20 handicap who's played for over 30 years enjoys hitting 9 irons and occasionally putting for birdie. We had a newish course called Salt Creek which had a 4900 yard set of tees and she loved playing there. Sadly they just closed due to expensive water fees. It was pretty much unwalkable so riding out the 70-100 yards from my tee to hers in the cart was no problem.

[Garland Bayley]

Thanks, Garland.  Why does it do that?

My experience is that copy and paste from somewhere else does that.

[BJones]

Take gender out of it.  I love the model that U.S. Kids Golf took at Longleaf.  I wish every course could incorporate it.  They recommend which tee you play based on how far you hit your driver.  On the range are very visible markers that correlate with the tees on the course.


http://www.longleafteesystem.com/#assessment

[Dave McCollum]

Thanks, Garland.  Why does it do that?

My experience is that copy and paste from somewhere else does that.

Thanks.  I copied from MS Word and pasted.  I won't do do that.  Not that it matters much what I say. 

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