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PThomas

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Kenosha CC
« on: March 03, 2009, 09:24:53 AM »
anyone played this Ross that , i think, has been worked on recently

thanks!
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199 played, only Augusta National left to play!

PCCraig

  • Karma: +0/-0
Re: Kenosha CC
« Reply #1 on: March 03, 2009, 09:41:37 AM »
Paul-

I have played it, maybe 7 or 8 years ago.

From what I remember, it is a pretty good and solid Ross course, and it reminded me alot of the (pre-restoration) Exmoor and Evanston CC's on the north shore. While I think it was pretty short by today's standard's (6600-6700 yards), it was super tight with trees and I remember only hitting 2-irons off the tees.
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H.P.S.

SL_Solow

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Re: Kenosha CC
« Reply #2 on: March 03, 2009, 12:17:55 PM »
Mark Mungeam has been working there for the past few years.  I plan to visit this summer so I can't make any specific comments.
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John Nixon

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Re: Kenosha CC
« Reply #3 on: March 03, 2009, 12:29:22 PM »
You never did "The Kenosha", kid.







A special tip o' the cap to the first to identify the Great American Novel (well, one of them) in which this first appeared. ;)
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Jim Thompson

  • Karma: +0/-0
Re: Kenosha CC
« Reply #4 on: March 03, 2009, 01:08:33 PM »
John,

The sheer gravitas of such a phrase as "You. Never. Did. The. Kenosha. Kid." may be to immense for this body.  Perhaps, "would you like to tie me uo with some of your ties, TY?" would be more appropo.  I wonder how many have a pention for Pynchon??? ;)  All of which leads us to the question of whether it is still ok to ba a luddite? Perhaps we'll find out over the rainbow.

Cheers!

JT
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Jim Thompson

Chuck Brown

  • Karma: +0/-0
Re: Kenosha CC
« Reply #5 on: March 03, 2009, 01:17:42 PM »
Interesting.  A quick visit to the Kenosha CC website (and it looks to be a real good website) shows at least one very interesting membership classification; a "Second Golf Membership."  It allows members of other clubs, who wish to also belong to Kenosha, to join at a reduced rate and enjoy up to 20 rounds of golf per year.

I imagine that Kenosha's economy right now is a bit like Michigan's.  And that all clubs in auto-making towns are hurting.  This seems like a very good and creative membership opition.  You'd be getting more rounds of golf played, more food and beverage, but unlike public-access or more outings, etc., the players would be other private-club players, which I suspect means a better pace of play, better course etiquette, more interesting social connections and networking between clubs, etc.

It could be an attractive thing for members at other clubs in Chicago, Milwaukee and Madison.  I might suggest it to some Detroit-area clubs...
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John Nixon

  • Karma: +0/-0
Re: Kenosha CC
« Reply #6 on: March 03, 2009, 01:19:17 PM »
Quote from: Jim Thompson on March 03, 2009, 01:08:33 PM
John,

The sheer gravitas of such a phrase as "You. Never. Did. The. Kenosha. Kid." may be to immense for this body.  Perhaps, "would you like to tie me uo with some of your ties, TY?" would be more appropo.  I wonder how many have a pention for Pynchon??? ;)  All of which leads us to the question of whether it is still ok to ba a luddite? Perhaps we'll find out over the rainbow.

Cheers!

JT

Wow, 39 minutes for the correct response. My faith in the prowess of this board is renewed.    :)
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PThomas

  • Karma: +0/-0
Re: Kenosha CC
« Reply #7 on: March 03, 2009, 01:23:58 PM »
Quote from: John Nixon on March 03, 2009, 01:19:17 PM
Quote from: Jim Thompson on March 03, 2009, 01:08:33 PM
John,

The sheer gravitas of such a phrase as "You. Never. Did. The. Kenosha. Kid." may be to immense for this body.  Perhaps, "would you like to tie me uo with some of your ties, TY?" would be more appropo.  I wonder how many have a pention for Pynchon??? ;)  All of which leads us to the question of whether it is still ok to ba a luddite? Perhaps we'll find out over the rainbow.

Cheers!

JT

Wow, 39 minutes for the correct response. My faith in the prowess of this board is renewed.    :)

ask about a non fiction book next time John for those of us who dont read fiction ;)!
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199 played, only Augusta National left to play!

Chuck Brown

  • Karma: +0/-0
Re: Kenosha CC
« Reply #8 on: March 03, 2009, 01:31:29 PM »
Should we have a pension for Pynchon or a penchant for Pynchon?
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Jim Thompson

  • Karma: +0/-0
Re: Kenosha CC
« Reply #9 on: March 03, 2009, 01:40:39 PM »
Hell, I was just happy I could answer the question without givng away the answer!

Should I deconstruct my answer for the class?

V for Victory! ;D

JT
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Jim Thompson

Phil McDade

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Re: Kenosha CC
« Reply #10 on: March 03, 2009, 07:09:26 PM »
One of only two courses in Wisconsin attributed to Ross (Oconomowoc CC is the other). Kenosha CC is hosting the local US Am qualifying tourney Aug. 10.
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Keith Buntrock

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Re: Kenosha CC
« Reply #11 on: March 03, 2009, 07:42:37 PM »
Quote from: Phil McDade on March 03, 2009, 07:09:26 PM
One of only two courses in Wisconsin attributed to Ross (Oconomowoc CC is the other). Kenosha CC is hosting the local US Am qualifying tourney Aug. 10.

I hope to play that US Am qually in August. I go to school 5 minutes from the course and played in once a few years ago. I putted the ball off the first green. It got better after that.
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David Smolensky

Re: Kenosha CC
« Reply #12 on: March 16, 2009, 07:43:36 PM »
I have played Kenosha CC (Ross, 1922) many times, as a member for the past 22 years.  During my membership I have been very active in the Clubs business.  I have served on the Board for 12 years and the Greens Chair for the past 6 years.     

I can say with a high degree of certainty that Mark Mungeam has not been working on KCC course for the past several years…….in fact no architect has ever done any significent work on the course.  In order for any restoration to happen a 2/3 vote of the members is required.  Perhaps...... the work referred to is the removal of 300 - 400 trees during my tenure as GNG Chair.  I know that Mr. Mungeam has done some work at Racine CC (located 8 miles north of Kenosha) and perhaps that is the source of the confusion regarding work at KCC. 

For those of you interested in playing KCC feel free to contact me and I can help make the necessary arrangement s for your visit…….it’s a fun golf experience, I’m sure you will want more. 

Oh, the 2nd golf membership is a fantastic deal and should be seriously considered if you are in the Kenosha area from time to time.   

Regards

Smo
"Worlds Fastest Golfer"
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Phil McDade

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Re: Kenosha CC
« Reply #13 on: March 16, 2009, 08:17:26 PM »
David:

Welcome to the board, and thanks for the insights into Kenosha. I've always been curious about the course (in part because Ross didn't do much here in Wisconsin), because I don't know too many of my golfing friends who have played it, and Ross courses sometimes get worked over, so to speak. Is the club making any particular changes for the US Am qualifying tourney? I'm hoping to get down there for the tourney if the schedule allows. Just from the aerial, it looks to be an interesting property with some nice elements like the creek. Glad to hear about the tree-clearing as well.

Good luck with the US Am tourney this summer.

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Mike McGuire

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Re: Kenosha CC
« Reply #14 on: March 17, 2009, 09:05:30 AM »
Kenosha is a cool course, could be great. A restoration waiting to happen.

You can clearly make out a lot of Ross's bunkers in the trees. They didn't level them - just grassed them over.

David -

Where does your club draw the line on work to be done that needs a 2/3 vote? Trees don't seem to be an issue.  Putting sand back in a bunker, changing mowing lines?
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Dan Moore

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Re: Kenosha CC
« Reply #15 on: March 17, 2009, 02:59:36 PM »
David aka World's Fastest Golfer,

Welcome to the site.  Being a Kenosha man we'll have to let you know when we visit nearby Spring Valley, the worlds best sub-$25 golf course.  The raised Langford Moreau greens usually are ready to go early in the year.  I'm sure they are already open.
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"Is there any other game which produces in the human mind such enviable insanity."  Bernard Darwin

David Smolensky

Re: Kenosha CC
« Reply #16 on: March 18, 2009, 08:45:23 PM »
Mike M:
Good question regarding the 2/3 vote requirement.  The by-law approved 20 years ago states that a 2/3 vote is required to: Substantially change or alter the original “Donald Ross” architectural design and plan of the golf course.   This by-law was a reaction to Greens Chairman taking liberties to tee shapes, placements, tee heights and the use of railroad ties.  Ex. the 17th hole became a dog leg right 3 par when  a greens chair placed the tee so far right that it was (is) unplayable unless you cut the ball.  (What is really funny is that the GNG chair played right to left and could not make birdie following the change).  The 17th hole, like several at KCC, is the source of much controversy due to the slope of the original Ross greens and the members desire to have Augusta type green speeds.
The wording of the by law allows for some interpretation as to the intent.   As a co author and former GNG Chair I have my view.  Trees are not substantial nor are they intricate to the original design…..tees, green complexes, bunkers, and routing are.  Mowing lines are, but only if it is possible to change a dog leg left into a dog leg right (exaggerated for effect).  With only 125 acres assigned to our course…….. how much can you really do with mowing lines?   
Putting sand back in an original bunker is easy…..no vote required.  However, getting the shape and contour of the bunker might be another matter.  I have refused to enter that arena.  The reason is that I am not smart enough to know how that should play out.  I don’t consider it my area of experience
(it is an interest however).  Nor do I believe that KCC (and most Clubs) has anyone on its professional staff or its membership roster that has that expertise.   That is why we seek experts and a solid Master Plan.
Can’t wait to see what Ron P did at WB.
Regards
smo
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Phil McDade

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Re: Kenosha CC
« Reply #17 on: March 19, 2009, 10:24:02 AM »
David:

Just curious...does the club have any original plans produced by Ross and/or his associates, or any old aerials, that would help with restoration efforts? I know, for instance, that the nearby bunkerless Spring Valley, a Langford/Moreau favored by some here on the discussion board, has some original bunker plans tucked away in some room. If the course ever put in its bunkers, it would know where Langford intended them to go. Did Ross leave much for the club, or has it been able to keep records from back then?

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SL_Solow

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Re: Kenosha CC
« Reply #18 on: March 19, 2009, 02:54:35 PM »
Just saw this again.  Oops, I erred and I appreciate David's correction.  Mungeam is working down the road at Racine.  Sorry for the error.
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David Smolensky

Re: Kenosha CC
« Reply #19 on: March 20, 2009, 08:05:43 PM »
Phil:

We do not have much.........a retracing by a former member of the original drainage diagram from 1922 and Dept of Ag photos 1941, 50, 56, 63, 69, 79, 92 which I located at the Robinson Library in Madison.....I will post shortly.

Smo

"Worlds Fastest Golfer"
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Phil McDade

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Re: Kenosha CC
« Reply #20 on: March 21, 2009, 09:50:30 AM »
David:

Thanks for the update and the help -- I've heard Kenosha (probably like a lot of courses) is one that you can glean only so much from an aireal photo because the topography and lay of the land there makes for several interesting holes (the one that hugs the western edge of the property and crosses the creek?). Looking forward to this, and appreciate your efforts -- lots of Wisconsin's better private courses are pretty low-key, making an examination of the architectural history and evolution hard to trace.

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RJ_Daley

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Re: Kenosha CC
« Reply #21 on: March 21, 2009, 12:38:52 PM »
David, thanks for reminding me of the Robinson Library (although I didn't know it had a name) at the old Science Hall.  I remember going in there in the 60s, as part of a Geography class, examining the old stereoscopic 3-D maps of features.  I bet they have some great aerials for locating golden era golf course features like bunkers for restoration. 

Kenosha really had a golden era of sports from the 40s and 50s.  I'll bet some interesting characters have been a part of KCC history. 

I've heard people talk about KCC many times, but never got around to checking it out.  Don't they have a 'heart attack hill' sort of closing hole, I seem to remember people saying.  From some of the descriptions, I've wondered how close to Southern Pines, KCC might be in design concept.

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Jud_T

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Re: Kenosha CC
« Reply #22 on: May 09, 2017, 04:16:31 PM »
Anyone have an update on Drew Rogers' work at Kenosha?
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Golf is a game. We play it. Somewhere along the way we took the fun out of it and charged a premium to be punished.- - Ron Sirak

Adam Lawrence

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Re: Kenosha CC
« Reply #23 on: May 09, 2017, 04:23:00 PM »
Drew took me round Kenosha a couple of years ago, before he started work on the course. I liked it a lot and thought it could be very good indeed. Not sure how far he's got, but I'll find out
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Adam Lawrence

Editor, Golf Course Architecture
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Author, 'More Enduring Than Brass: a biography of Harry Colt' (forthcoming).

Short words are best, and the old words, when short, are the best of all.

Bradley Anderson

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Re: Kenosha CC
« Reply #24 on: May 09, 2017, 07:20:58 PM »
I played it in October of 2015. Every hole is memorable. The routing crosses the creek several times and at interesting angles. There is a fair amount of elevation change. The original bunkers all appeared to be there, many grown over and hidden in trees. The plan is to clear the trees and restore the sand. When they complete all that work I wouldn't surprised if Kenosha is rated as one of the top clubs in Wisconsin.
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