19th Holes--On the Course

[Craig Rokke]

Meadow Farms in Virginia offers a warm-up par 4 hole that golfers play before venturing out onto one of the three 9's. When we played it, I remember thinking that it was kind of a cool idea, as it allowed for a chance to loosen up. As it turned out, it was just one of many unique features on the course.

I recently read that the newly-opened and highly-regarded
Kinloch, also in Virginia, has an extra hole. In their case, apparently a spot for a great par 3 presented itself, and
it did not mesh well with either the front or back 9's. So they built it anyway. I'm not exactly sure when it is used.

Do any other courses have 19th holes, or is this a Virginia phenomenon?

[Dan Grossman]

Craig,

This was a thread brought up not too long ago.

A link to it is below.

http://www.golfclubatlas.com/forums2/YaBB.cgi?board=GD1&action=display&num=1020210294&start=0

[Craig Rokke]

Thanks, missed that one.

[TEPaul]

Craig:

When you start mentioning things like a 19th hole, I start to think of other interesting architectural ideas!

First of all why have a 19th hole, or a 20th, 21st, 22nd etc? To make anything like that work well there has to be a reason for it and generally a very good reason--and it has to work well somehow, for whatever reason!

I think, in certain situations--ie a really good site with more than 18 good golf holes sites and possibilities and a need or any good reason to use them well--the possibility of having more than 18 holes can be interesting--if their use is interesting.

This can get into the concept of "courses within a course" and it's a concept which is fascinating and very much "outside the box".

In it's best form it can create some very interesting "courses" (within a course), where, for instance, there may become a number of ways and a number of routing progressions one can play a golf course!

And if, somehow, this kind of thing--"courses with a course"--could be done in such a way where one routing progression (or course) would become recogizable and valid without the other "courses" becoming even recognizable to the golfer, you really might have something--something very interesting architecturally!!

I have a lot of different phrases for things and this one I call "Rorcshach" architecture!!

Like a Rorcshach test if you squint and look at it you might see a women's face pointing right, but if you squint again and look at it you might see a duck pointing left!

Theoretically, and if done well you might have a golf course that can be played many different ways and when playing it one way, the other ways would not even be recognizable.

I think it can actually be done, given the right circumstances with only 18 golf holes but if it works with 19 or 20 or 21...etc, so be it!!

Say, for instance, a golf course you could play a different way for every day of the week and not even see the other ways or days while doing it!!

George Thomas experimented with this and it even appears he may have done it well but it was not sufficiently recognized, for apparently other reasons.

It makes me wonder about Thomas! Many of the holes and courses he did were very creative but he may have been more creative than we realize--possibly the most creative ever!

[Damian]

Talk of extra holes and "courses within courses" raises a question in my mind about routing methodolgies.

When plannning a course, does a typical architect plan the holes in a sequence starting at a proposed clubhouse site (i.e. the first hole) then proceeding in order through to the 18th, giving consideration to issues such as proximity of tee to previous green, returning to clubhouse after nine holes, etc.

OR

does he first place the holes on the overall plot of land, in no particular order, simply placing each hole as an entity unto itself to ensure that each hole is placed in the best topography it can be in, paying heed to issues of safety, etc. Once the 18 hole locations are determined, he then figures out the playing order of the holes with the issues above being far more secondary to the plan.

At the risk of answering my own question maybe it's a mixture of these two. However, I'd be interested to hear of other approaches and  other considerations that can impact the routing of a course.

[TEPaul]

That's the mysterious aspect of golf architecture in how designers create the "bones of the course". Probably no architect does it the same way and probably the entire group of architects now and in the past have done it vastly different from one another.

Personally I believe it's never a simple matter. There can be plenty of luck involved and many things determine the methods used. I do believe though that routing and that which immediately follows it is probably the best method of really understanding the subject of golf architecture!

[Mike Vegis @ Kiawah]

The Dunes Club in Myrtle Beach has an extra Par-3 that comes right after the horrendous "horseshoe" hole.  I say get rid of the horseshoe and use the par 3...  Sure, you loose two strokes to par (72 to 70) but you get rid of the windmills and smiling clowns of the goofy-golf horseshoe.

Plus we still have the remenants of the hole made for the filming of Bagger Vance at The Ocean Course, although, like in the book, it's returning to it's natural state.  In our case, it's natural state is a staging area for hospitality tents for golf tournaments...

[Jeff Goldman]

In West Chicago, Prairie Landing (an RTJ II layout) has three practice holes, which are good practice and included in the green fee, while Blackthorn in South Bend (Hurdzan?) has one, which is a very short par 4, sort of uphill.