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Bill_McBride

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Re: Pebble Beach v Riviera ?
« Reply #100 on: February 27, 2009, 10:58:38 AM »
If #13 is the weakest hole out there, there are 17 really superb holes!

Bill

exactly.  Every course has a 'least best' hole.  It often says something about the other 17.  I think Tom Huckaby or Adam Clayman was making the same point about Pebble.  If #15 is the 'least best' at Pebble, and there is some special aspects to that hole then that says something about Pebble overall.

James B

ps

Bill, I didn't mind the tree-lined fairways at Riviera except for two stands of trees - the said trees on the inside of the #13 dogleg, and the trees between the dual fairways of #8.  The playing corridors at Riviera are fine, not as wide as a Doak course but not claustrophobic either.  They are not as narrow as the TV coverage and blimp shots imply.

I didn't pay much attention to the trees on #13 on my stroll from #10 green to #8 green, but the green really caught my attention with the pin perched precariously on the promontory peninsula (whew!).  But I fully agree that the trees between #8 fairways have to go if that hole is play as originally designed.

David Stamm

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Re: Pebble Beach v Riviera ?
« Reply #101 on: February 27, 2009, 11:01:57 AM »
David - hey you gotta love the comparison... praise the man's team (at the expense of my beloved alma mater) yet insult his choice of golf courses... kinda tough for him to fire back too hard at me!

Question for you who prefer Riv though:  does the equation change if we make it Riv v. Cypress Point?




I hold CPC in vey high regard (as you know) and it's my personal #1. Having said that, Riviera is a close second for me. I do prefer CPC over Riviera, but for me, it's a very tough choice just like I mentioned earlier that it's a tough choice between PB and Riviera. I'll take the Deon Sanders stance. "Boff". ;D
"The object of golf architecture is to give an intelligent purpose to the striking of a golf ball."- Max Behr

Tom Huckaby

Re: Pebble Beach v Riviera ?
« Reply #102 on: February 27, 2009, 11:03:50 AM »
David - gotcha - that helps my understanding a lot.  You do hold Riviera in VERY high regard.  But at least you are not completely utterly insane.   ;D

Methinks I need to play it again, as for me it's not really in the ballpark of these greats.  But we do tend to favor different things in how we look at golf courses, so no hassles... it has to be expected we'd see this quite differently.

TH

mark chalfant

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Re: Pebble Beach v Riviera ?
« Reply #103 on: February 28, 2009, 01:20:56 AM »
Matt,

When your time permits,  I would value  some of your  specific thoughts on how Pebble Beach and Riviera compare. For instance your analysis of the total ensemble of par fours at each course.

Thanks

Matt_Ward

Re: Pebble Beach v Riviera ?
« Reply #104 on: February 28, 2009, 02:00:15 AM »
Mark:

I don't have much time to apply a total overview and you do pose an interesting place to start on the par-4 side.

Keep in mind, it's not just a total analysis of all the holes when held side-by-side -- it's about where they fall during the round and how they maintain the kind of rythm to the round itself.

For example, I really like how Riviera starts with a very scoreable hole with the par-5 1st. It invites a possible really low number -- including the eagle option -- Phil made 3 out of 4 during the tourney last week. What makes matters interesting is the juxtaposition of the 2nd hole. It's long and plays nearly the opposite direction. Whatever you make on the 1st can quickly be given back at the 2nd.

Pebble clearly has much written about the all-world trio of par-4's you get starting with the 8th through the 10th. Each is clearly different than the other and one's entire round can quickly come to a crashing end (no pun intended!).

I will have to say that the attempt to switch the 2nd at PB into a par-4 is nothing more than an attempt to limit the number of official subpar rounds. I see the hole being a par-5.

I also don't see much to say about the opening hole at PB. It's Ok -- at best -- and that's being extremely generous in my mind.

I'll forward more info as the hour now is quite late.

 

Rob Rigg

  • Karma: +0/-0
Re: Pebble Beach v Riviera ?
« Reply #105 on: February 28, 2009, 02:05:38 AM »
I was going to suggest that much has gone on since Matt posted but he just got 'er done -

Seems like, at then end of the day, PB is a bit of feast or famine while the Riv is much more consistent.

Unfortunately, two diffent animals, very tought to compare side to side.

CPC would be a non-starter but I see the reason to through PB in there.

BTW - f'load of demerits for the dreadful looking cart paths they threw down on the PB golf links - vile stuff indeed!

Bill_McBride

  • Karma: +0/-0
Re: Pebble Beach v Riviera ?
« Reply #106 on: February 28, 2009, 10:49:03 AM »
I was going to suggest that much has gone on since Matt posted but he just got 'er done -

Seems like, at then end of the day, PB is a bit of feast or famine while the Riv is much more consistent.

Unfortunately, two diffent animals, very tought to compare side to side.

CPC would be a non-starter but I see the reason to through PB in there.

BTW - f'load of demerits for the dreadful looking cart paths they threw down on the PB golf links - vile stuff indeed!

Robb, it's a stretch to call the lesser inland holes at Pebble a "famine;" they would be quite good holes on most golf courses.  I fully agree with your thoughts on the concrete cart paths.  I well remember my rounds there as a young kid with no cart paths at all, and carrying my own bag for $20.  (This was a LONG time ago)

Adam Clayman

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Re: Pebble Beach v Riviera ?
« Reply #107 on: February 28, 2009, 11:14:11 AM »
Since a couple of roads are prominent, I don't see how the cart paths are a major factor in the evaluation of the gca. Only from an aerial view are the CP"s really hideous. While golfing, they are much less noticeable than the roads. Since my first visit to the resort, the roads were a key element to Pebble's unique feeling while driving through and around the course. A feeling that is pretty much the same the 500th time as the first.
In the 1970's, I'm under the ipmpression there were no formal cart paths (or at least as extensive) and the maintenance of the turf suffered severely. Having the curbed paths has helped keep the average moron from both ruing the turf and driving off the cliffs.  ;)

With both the new maintenance, and an annual tour stop where both the first and tenth tees are used, having the road going out towards ten tee is essential.


"It's unbelievable how much you don't know about the game you've been playing your whole life." - Mickey Mantle

Bill_McBride

  • Karma: +0/-0
Re: Pebble Beach v Riviera ?
« Reply #108 on: February 28, 2009, 02:24:43 PM »
Since a couple of roads are prominent, I don't see how the cart paths are a major factor in the evaluation of the gca. Only from an aerial view are the CP"s really hideous. While golfing, they are much less noticeable than the roads. Since my first visit to the resort, the roads were a key element to Pebble's unique feeling while driving through and around the course. A feeling that is pretty much the same the 500th time as the first.
In the 1970's, I'm under the ipmpression there were no formal cart paths (or at least as extensive) and the maintenance of the turf suffered severely. Having the curbed paths has helped keep the average moron from both ruing the turf and driving off the cliffs.  ;)

With both the new maintenance, and an annual tour stop where both the first and tenth tees are used, having the road going out towards ten tee is essential.




Adam, I played Pebble from the late '50s through 1978 and there were no hard surfaced cart paths that I can remember.  Since 1978 I've only wandered around a bit and looked at photos.  The concrete paths with curbs are despicable but I guess essential to keep the hordes on the paths.

James Bennett

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Re: Pebble Beach v Riviera ?
« Reply #109 on: February 28, 2009, 07:18:44 PM »
Barely perceptible.   :P



James B
Bob; its impossible to explain some of the clutter that gets recalled from the attic between my ears. .  (SL Solow)

Adam Clayman

  • Karma: +0/-0
Re: Pebble Beach v Riviera ?
« Reply #110 on: February 28, 2009, 08:50:29 PM »
James, I meant as one normally plays the course, the paths are rarely this visible. Besides, who the hell is looking at cart paths when Point Lobos and Big Sur beckons?
« Last Edit: February 28, 2009, 08:52:37 PM by Adam Clayman »
"It's unbelievable how much you don't know about the game you've been playing your whole life." - Mickey Mantle

James Bennett

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Re: Pebble Beach v Riviera ?
« Reply #111 on: March 01, 2009, 05:21:42 PM »
Adam

I agree that if you are focussed on the fairway of the hole in play that the paths are unobtrusive (perhaps the Patrick Mucci view of Pebble as opposed to the Tom Huckaby view).

And, I give full marks to Pebble's management for presenting a course to so many players year-round in such great condition.

And, the road through the middle from the sheds back to the clubhouse is invaluable, and well done.

But, as I dislike Carts, and dislike cart-paths more (although I am not running a business, so I understand why Pebble does it) I really dislike the views back across the vast open spaces on the course, a la the view back from 14 across the 6-7-8 triangle.  I also recognise that I could easily learn over time to look beyond the cart paths and focus on Point Lobos and to think about Big Sur beyond.

James B
Bob; its impossible to explain some of the clutter that gets recalled from the attic between my ears. .  (SL Solow)

Adam Clayman

  • Karma: +0/-0
Re: Pebble Beach v Riviera ?
« Reply #112 on: March 01, 2009, 07:13:33 PM »
James, I'm no fan of paths unless they are walking ones. I tend to be sensitive to cart paths when they are repeatedly visible. However, it's an economic reality (or was), the revenue generated is sometimes essential.  As someone who has caddied on that auld sod, (Pebble) I will never understand anyone who would choose to ride around that property, especially on their initial, and maybe their only, visit. Physical disability aside. There are no arduous walks save for the short hill on #6. #'s 11, 13 & 14 are uphill but gracefully so.

In general, The techniques used to hide the CP's (mounds) is often worse than the introduction of grey concrete. Creative alternatives to mitigate the visual intrusion of paths is worth some time and money exploring, in Pre-Production, or, even at existing facilities, like Pebble. Be it coloring, or material change. i.e. Sometimes I'll see the black asphalt paths, and, with the contrast to the green grass, I actually like the look.


"It's unbelievable how much you don't know about the game you've been playing your whole life." - Mickey Mantle