[Patrick_Mucci]

As you walk off the 3rd green, you're not quite sure what to make of the hole you've just played.  It's quite unique, and chances are that the hole got the best of you.

So, you climb up to the back of the green, onto the berm like mound where a bell tower resides, you look back upon the hole you just played and then you ring the bell donated by, and in the memory of Joe McBride.

As you descend to the 4th tee, you gaze out to see what lies ahead.

It's an amazing site.

At first, you see nothing.
Yes, there's a deep valley below the tee that rises up to a ridge, with a broad panorama behind it, but, there's not the normally clear definition of the hole that lies ahead.

Then, as you begin to focus, you realize that there's a green on that ridge.
The flagstick is the defining clue.
Then you see the massive left front bunker wall, sending you a clear signal that you DON'T want to be short.

What the golfer can't see is the hidden signal that says, you don't want to go long, since the back side is almost as steep as it descends into a rear bunker.

As you gaze out, you think, wow, this is a long hole ......
How in the hell am I going to play it ?

At 195 from the back/red and 177 from the regular/green tees it presents a formidable, yet indefinite challenge.

The first consideration is, what club am I going to hit ?
That determination is largely a function of the wind, which is almost always blowing.

The hole plays to the NNE, so the prevailing wind is generally with you.

At 195, should the wind be crossing or in your face, reaching the green becomes far more challenging, especially with a back left hole location.

The green is 40 yards deep, angled about 45 degrees from the angle of the tee.

A fronting bunker sits at the base of the rise, leading to the ridge that is occupied by the green.  Other bunkers are to the right, bunkers that catch mishit or sliced tee shots.

The front left bunker with its steep slope leading to the green looms large.
It's hard NOT to focus on it.
The green, save for a portion of the shoulder to the front right is invisible.

In the past, the hole location wasn't discernable, but, thanks to the club's wisdom, the interior trees were removed and golfers who think ahead, can determine the hole location while playing the 3rd hole.

Once you know the hole location you can factor in the + / - yardage.

The question remains, how do I play this hole ?

Downwind it can be played several ways.

It can be played into the fronting bank allowing the ball to run up to the green and toward the hole or up toward the shoulder and then down to the green.

Both tactics are frought with danger.
Balls pulled, hooked, or that kick left meet an ugly fate, down into the deep front left bunker.  Balls pushed, sliced, or that kick right meet an almost equal, ugly fate in one of the other deep right side bunkers.
Balls hit long find the deep back bunker.

Irrespective of the bunker you find yourself in, you can't see the green.
You have a blind shot from a very deep bunker, and the wind is still a factor.

The tactic of hitting a high draw is a sound one, especially if the hole is cut to the back of the green, but, this shot also faces similar peril.
It must be a precise shot

Those who prefer to hit a high fade, especially to the back hole location must factor in the longer carry.

In my limited experience, when the hole is cut toward the back of the green, being long and left isn't a bad location to recover from since the slope of the green will aid in your recovery.

Missing the green presents unique problems.

The green has several cants.
It is not a monolithic green with but one sloping direction.
The front right shoulder can catapult recoveries to the back of the green or even off the green.
Blind recoveries from the bunkers can traverse the green and find the opposite side bunker.

The putting surface while generally sloped from high front right to low back L,C,R has some subtle counter slopes.

I would say that a universal truth would be that uphill putts have a far better chance of NOT resulting in 3 and 4 putts.

The hole, over time, is three games in one.
Tee shots
Recovery shots
Putts

As the wind changes direction and velocity, each one of those elements changes ..... drastically.

Into the wind the tee shot becomes exponentially more difficult, but, recovery may become much easier.

Cross winds present a unique challenge.
They tend to be uncommon, but, if you play there enough, you'll encounter them.  They can help or hurt your play depending upon their direction and your prefered ball flight.

Making a 3 on this hole is a victory.

The hole can extract large numbers and ruin a round ..... early.
That's never good in a medal play event, especially a qualifier.

At 195 yards the hole plays long, but, with modern equipment, good golfers are hitting short irons, making CBM do about 5,000 RPM's in his grave, yet, lengthening the hole, if that were possible, would be a mistake.

It is a wonderful, unique, challenging hole.
What's surprising is that more duplicates don't exist.
The 3rd at Piping Rock is about the best duplicate I've run across.

The trajectory of the incoming shot has a great deal of influence on the relative difficulty of the hole.

The higher the trajectory, the better able the golfer to hold the green.
The lower the trajectory, the more trouble comes into play.

Perhaps that's an additional facet of the architecture.

Low trajectories are better served by landing well short, while high trajectories are better served by landing on the green.

When you think about it, the hole compensates for distance by trajectory type.

If you hit it low, you won't play the distance, you'll play far short, taking far less club.

Whereas, if you play high, you'll want to land the ball close to the hole, requiring more carry.

Hitting short, and having to chip or putt down to the green is one of the more difficult "touch" shots you can make.

The green, wind, gravity and probably an element of grain make that shot super, super fast.  I've seen many a chip degreened.

If I was strong enough, I'd prefer a high fade almost every time I played the hole.

And, going long, left, leaves you with a bogey at most.

If someone posts pictures, I'll add additional comments

[Bill_McBride]

Patrick, how would you compare this wonderful Redan with the original at North Berwick?

[Charlie Goerges]

The fourth hole:





And a more traditional aerial shot:

[Patrick_Mucci]

Patrick, how would you compare this wonderful Redan with the original at North Berwick?

They have their similarities and their differences.

I think the 3rd at Piping Rock is more like the original at North Berwick.

Could someone post some ground level photos

[Bradley Anderson]

Patrick,

Do you have any visual aides on this hole for aiming your shot?

[Patrick_Mucci]

Bradley,

Not really.

So much is dependent upon the wind.

You can always pick out a backround target, but, I'd imagine that the faux swale created by the right front shoulder of the green and the right edge of the deep left side bunker slope is a decent target.

You almost get the feeling that you're hitting from one elevated platform to another, with dire consequences for any ball that doesn't end up on the targeted platform.

One of the charms of the hole is that I've seen bad shots end up well and good shots end up bad.  That seeming inequity has a unique charm about it in golf.

Is there anything better than hitting a poor shot only to find it six feet from the hole, and is there anything more disappointing than hitting a good shot only to have it end up in a deep bunker or heavy rough ?

One of the neat things about the hole in match play is the feeling you get if you hit the green and your opponent doesn't.  I wouldn't say that you're going to automatically get the honor on the 5th tee, but, it's close.

As much as I like the 4th hole, it's not my favorite par 3 at NGLA.
That's two hole away.

[TEPaul]

Bradley:

There's a lot about the original redan at North Berwick that looks nothing like any other redan I've seen on this side, but the most prominent difference is at North Berwick there's an enormous mound front and right of the green (with some bunkers in it) that blinds most of the right side of the green and the entire kicker approach. One can essentially hit the ball over that mound and the ball will very much filter right to left but you can't see it from the tee. With NGLA and Piping's redan you are looking right at the approach kicker on the high right of the green and on both holes you can see it bounce left off the kicker from which it filters left (if it's relatively F&F) and onto the green even though on both NGLA & Piping you can't see it filtering down into the green because the top and top right of the high front left bunker blinds most all the green surface from the tee. One is never sure where one's ball has ended up until one gets up there and very near the green.

[TEPaul]

Bradley:

In my opinion, when the courses I'm about to mention get to the point of what I would call ideally firm and fast (Ideal Maintenance Meld) both on the greens and "through the green", particularly on the fairly substantial and strategically really important approach areas, the classic and traditional "redan" shot is one of the true "feel" approach shots in golf.  If the greens are of ideal firmness it is almost impossible to hold NGLA and Piping's redan without playing it off the high right approach "kickers". If one actually carries the ball onto the green surfaces of those two holes the chances are the ball will get over the green somehow---eg either long into a back bunker or left off the low end of the green.

In a way there is a lot about Pine Valley's great 13th hole that plays this same way unless someone is really long off the tee and coming into that hole with a fairly short iron.

A little local knowledge with the NGLA redan compared to Piping's redan-----eg at NGLA it's actually something of a pretty safe miss to play the ball off the low left and end of NGLA's green but with Piping's it's very possible to go right over a pretty steep bank in that area which NGLA's does not have.

In my opinion, having played both NGLA's and Piping's redans hundreds of times in my life, I feel that Piping's redan and it's basic shot valuation is even better than NGLA's. Piping's is higher and you feel you are playing up to it a bit----the approach kicker works as well as NGLA's----Piping's might be at a slightly more severe angle and you do need to worry more about going long and left off the end of Piping's compared to NGLA's.

The real strong point of NGLA's compared to Piping's is the green really does look like it sits on its own basically natural diagonal ridgeline all the way along but with Piping's it is not at all hard to tell most of the green to the left is clearly built up and created from fill (if one looks around Piping's green it doesn't seem all that hard to tell where the massive fill was generated from either (even though I just noticed the extent of it in the last year or so after basically growing up at that place).

The long view behind NGLA's redan from the tee is also pretty much unmatched compared to any other redan I've ever seen.

[Ed Oden]

Patrick, first of all, thanks for picking back up with the NGLA journey.  As usual, your commentary is terrific.  Do you really think there are few duplicates of this design?  Admittedly, my architectural knowledge is much less than most on this site.  But it seems to me that the redan is as copied as any of the templates in the CBM portfolio.  Perhaps not exact replicas, but at least copies in concept.  How would you compare #4 at NGLA to #7 across the street or #6 at Yeamans.  I've never been to Piping Rock or North Berwick, but of the redans I have played, Yeamans is the closest to NGLA in terms of playing characteristics, except that wind is not as much of a factor.  Thanks again!

Ed

[Jim Nugent]

If the wind is in your face, do you generally try to carry your tee shot to the green? 

Also, how much wind are we talking about at NGLA?  Steady or gusting? 

[John Mayhugh]

The fourth hole at last!  What a treat this hole is. 

Two photos from the tee.




The green from front left.


Here's a shot from the front bunker.  You cannot see much from down there.


This is taken just past the bunker on the right side of the green.  You can get a sense of what Patrick talked about with multiple slopes, including the way the ball can feed down from the right side.


This is from the right side of the green.  You can have a tremendous amount of fun just playing various shots from here down to the green.


Here's the bunker behind the green.


This bunker is further right of the green and long.


This shows the hole from the 5th fairway.  The green complex is on the right side with the tee on the left near the 3rd hole bell.


I agree that this is a hole that is well worth duplicating.

[TEPaul]

Ed Oden:

We do not believe the redan at Shinnecock in its present form is the same as the redan that Macdonald did on that course even though the hole and green is in exactly the same place. We think the chances are better than not that Flynn essentially rebuilt that green in place. Shinnecock's redan does not have a traditional approach "kicker" as NGLA and Piping's does. The approach on Shinnecock's is much more straight-on and a real upslope (that tends to kill shots hit into it) even though a bit of greenspace and short grass approach space is going to be reestablished on the top right to help promote a bit of a "kicker" affect.

[TEPaul]

Here's a bit of "playability" trivia or local knowledge on NGLA's redan.

Take a look at John Mayhugh's first photograph of the hole from the tee in his Reply #10. You can see two white specks above the green (the righthand one is probably the flag). If you try to play your tee shot into the fairway kicker short and left of the righthand white speck the chances are very good that your ball will collect left and into that big front left bunker. From the tee for golfers not that familiar with that hole it looks like that is the ideal line to kick the ball onto the green. It really isn't. The ideal and traditional "redan shot" particularly if the course is sufficiently firm and fast is up to the right of that. You just have to trust the ground up to the right on that big approach kicker as it will cast the ball left and across the approach and onto the right to left sloping green. To me this is why this is such a great golf hole and why the traditional "redan shot" is such an interesting and unique one!

This is also a perfect example of why courses like this one and holes like this one really do need to be maintained and "through the green" in something of an ideal firm and fast state (IMM). When they are this type of hole and the traditional "redan shot" just becomes completely highlighted!!

[John Mayhugh]

Tom,
The left-hand speck is the flag.  The white speck to the right is some distance further away.

You don't want to get too far right on that slope.  The ground can get uncooperative up there and it's not an easy shot to get close if you didn't get the desired kick left from your tee shot.

[David Stamm]

Tom,
The left-hand speck is the flag.  The white speck to the right is some distance further away.

You don't want to get too far right on that slope.  The ground can get uncooperative up there and it's not an easy shot to get close if you didn't get the desired kick left from your tee shot.

As usual John, great photos!

[TEPaul]

"You don't want to get too far right on that slope.  The ground can get uncooperative up there and it's not an easy shot to get close if you didn't get the desired kick left from your tee shot."


John Mayhugh:

And that is precisely why I've said many times that that hole and that approach shot including the traditional "redan shot" is one of the greatest "feel" shots in all of golf.

One has to pretty much "feel" from the tee what-all the ground is or isn't going to do once the ball first hits the ground, and one has to both aim the tee shot and flight it accordingly.

I like to use the analogy (and have on here a number of times) that that shot is something like the old race-driver analogy of needing to feel the limit of adhesion of his tires on the road in the seat of his pants! 

The point is if that course is receptive to the ball both "through the green" and on the green one can pretty much land the ball on the right side of that green but if the course is firm and fast throughout (what I like to call the IMM) there is almost no way to hold a ball on that green if the ball first lands on the green rather than on that fairway "kicker" to the right of the green.

Of course to say something like that one would need to factor in the player too. I know from years of my own experience there that in really firm and fast conditions there is no way for me to hold the ball on that green without playing it off that fairway kicker to the right but it would not suprise me at all if say a Tiger Woods in the very same ground conditions could hit a big high fade with about four clubs less than me right over that front left bunker and somehow hold it on that green.

However, I doubt even a C.B. Macdonald ever contemplated back then the types of shots a Tiger Woods is capable of hitting today.

[Bradley Anderson]

Tom,

This is not nearly as banked up on the right side as what I have seen on the Chicago Redans. Maybe the camera is not capturing it as well here.

But I would say at Shoreacres the bank on the right side is at least three feet higher than the putting surface.

The NGLA Redan seems to fit the terrain most naturally of any I have seen.

[Patrick_Mucci]

Patrick, first of all, thanks for picking back up with the NGLA journey. 
As usual, your commentary is terrific. 

Do you really think there are few duplicates of this design? 

Yes.

While there are "generally themed" Redans, I've never seen one that duplicates the configuration of NGLA's.

If Piping Rock had an elevated tee it might come close.

Admittedly, my architectural knowledge is much less than most on this site.  But it seems to me that the redan is as copied as any of the templates in the CBM portfolio.  Perhaps not exact replicas, but at least copies in concept. 

As an analogy, I would offer the following:
A lot of women dyed their hair and got implants, but, they don't look like Pamela Anderson.

How would you compare #4 at NGLA to #7 across the street or #6 at Yeamans.  I've never been to Piping Rock or North Berwick, but of the redans I have played, Yeamans is the closest to NGLA in terms of playing characteristics, except that wind is not as much of a factor.  Thanks again!

# 4 at NGLA and # 7 at SHCC bear little resemblance to each other in terms of play.  # 7 heads southerly, # 4 northerly, thus the winds are entirely different, and wind direction and velocity have an enormous influence on the play of the 4th hole.

[Patrick_Mucci]

If the wind is in your face, do you generally try to carry your tee shot to the green? 

I think you have to.
Remember, into the wind, you'll get a steeper trajectory, and if you examine the front of that green carefully, you'll see that if you don't carry your ball to a certain point, it won't roll forward after impact.

Into the wind, the ramp is less of an aid.

Into the wind, shots hit short, that are slightly off line, will end up in undesirable places (bunkers, etc., etc..)

Into the wind, the green is a more accepting target.

But, the carry is more heroic which means that you have to hit more club.


Also, how much wind are we talking about at NGLA?  Steady or gusting? 


It's usually pretty steady, although there are times when there's no wind and times when the wind gusts.

It's usually a two club length wind, but, it can be more, or less.

[Jim Nugent]

With the wind, two-clubs means the hole plays around 175/155.  You have to run the ball up, so knock another 10 yards (?) off your target distance.  Around 165/145?  Sounds like 7 iron-9 iron for most players.

Into the wind, 215/195, all carry.  Long iron/hybrid or more for most.  Are my estimates in the park?  Very big difference if so.  I see why you say it's a lot tougher into the wind. 

Overall at NGLA, I'm interested to know which tees are the right ones, for which players.  How good/long a player do you need to be, to play the tips on this course? 

[TEPaul]

"While there are "generally themed" Redans, I've never seen one that duplicates the configuration of NGLA's.
If Piping Rock had an elevated tee it might come close."


Having known NLGA and Piping Rock for about fifty years I always felt the traditional redan shot of trying to bring the ball off the fairway kicker onto the green was a bit better on Piping's redan partly because the green is a bit higher than the tee (and the kicker is slightly higher than the green of course). You very much do feel you are hitting the shot a bit up to the green and the kicker at Piping compared to NGLA.


One of the reasons I've felt this is more appropriate to a redan hole or shot is because of the military etymology of the name or theme of the hole and name but I realize that may not be of any importance to most golfers.

On the other hand, one thing Piping's redan lacks in comparison to NGLA's redan is the gorgeous backdrop to the hole.

The kickers of NGLA and Piping do work a bit differently and both have their own interesting nuances and local knowledge for the traditional redan shot. I think it is a bit easier to play a shot onto the right portion of the green at Piping compared to NGLA and get away with it. One reason for that is Piping's green seems to be at a more severe angle to the green and the back of the green just might be banked up to the tee a bit more than NGLA's.

At Piping's you feel you can sort of sweep the ball right to left a lot higher up on the back of the kicker than at NGLA (where the ball tends to keep going straight if you hit it to the back portion of the kicker).

I also noticed in the last few years Piping restored more fairway and green apron space up on the high back of the kicker which is most appropriate in my opinion. You get the feeling your ball can almost bank off a high bankrd turn like at a race track turn at Daytona Beach.

I very much like that these holes have their various differences in design and playability this way. Greater similiarity to one another and they would lose their individual uniqueness.

But Piping's is the redan that I feel like I'm hitting up to more than any other redan I know and I've always liked that aspect of that particular redan.

As a bit of redan trivia, the traditional "redan shot" of working the ball off the fairway kicker onto the green, the one that was the most admired, mysterious and interesting in my experience with the golfers who knew most all the Macdonald/Raynor courses was the old Links Club's reverse redan. I recall that it might've been a bit over 200 yards and most good players tried to work a low fade into it with something like a 4 wood which never seemed to be an easy shot on call. But when it was executed well, the ball landing properly on that kicker and coming off right and down into the green was really satisfying. And like most redans if the ball got about a quarter of the way onto the green you lost sight of it.

[Patrick_Mucci]

With the wind, two-clubs means the hole plays around 175/155.  You have to run the ball up, so knock another 10 yards (?) off your target distance.  Around 165/145?  Sounds like 7 iron-9 iron for most players.

FEW, if any players are hitting 7-9 iron.

Into the wind, 215/195, all carry.  Long iron/hybrid or more for most.


Jim, you have to remember that the green is 40 yards deep, so hole location has a huge effect on club selection.

With a back left hole location, into the wind, you're not going to get much run, so you need more "aerial" club, including 3-woods for decent players.
 
Are my estimates in the park?  Very big difference if so.  I see why you say it's a lot tougher into the wind. 

Don't forget that into the wind, marginal or mishits get accentuated, that's why I'd advise against trying to hit short to the narrowest target.

Overall at NGLA, I'm interested to know which tees are the right ones, for which players.  How good/long a player do you need to be, to play the tips on this course? 

It can depend on the wind, the moisture in the air, AND how fast & firm the golf course is playing

The golf course has been lengthened, but, it's still manageable to a decent ball striker from the back tees.  It's a par 73, with only 3 par 3's.

I think the playing yardage differences come mostly on holes # 8, 10, 11, 12, 14 and 15.

Hopefully, # 18 will be lengthened back to the gate and # 7 back to the berm. 

[TEPaul]

"FEW, if any players are hitting 7-9 iron."


Pat:

Some years ago (and after I first got back to NGLA after a hiatus of many years) I hit a 7 iron from about a step off the back of the tee. I seem to remember that was about 198 yards. It was blowing pretty good dead downwind. The course was really firm and fast thoughout (ideally so, in my opinion). I took maybe 15 yards or so off the actual yardage to get the ball where I wanted it on that right fairway kicker and for the rest I just reduced it by the effect of the down wind. I generally hit a good 7-iron about 150 yards or maybe 160 if I want to put some real draw on it. I hit it just like I wanted to, it hit right where I wanted it to and bounced forward and left and filtered onto and down that green. When I got up there my ball was just a couple of feet from a pin in the back half of that green.

The next day in the tournament everything was just about identical (even though the tee markers were up a few steps from where I played it the day before) and I hit the exact same club and shot with the identical result.

After that the conditions were never like that again for me and either were my results. Nevertheless, those two consecutive shots on that hole made me fall in love with it even more than I ever had before.

My point is, if I could hit 7 iron with that result in those conditions I sure do know a lot of golfers who could hit a 9 iron in those identical conditions.

I'm like you, Patrick, I've never liked to have a caddy just hand me a club and I've never let one do it unless he wants to talk to me first about how I'd like to try to hit it.

[Patrick_Mucci]

To understand TEPaul's strategy, you would have to hit your ball into the area that's about the midpoint of the green and right shoulder, between just to the right of the flag and the left front bunker, and, at just the right distance.  Balls hit too short will remain short, balls hit to long or hot will find the back bunker.

I won't say that it's threading the needle, but, it's no easy task.
Being downwind does help as the wind acts as a corrective force.

[TEPaul]

Pat:

Most of my rounds in recent years were in and around the Singles Tournament and it seems the greens and entire course were generally pretty ideally firm and fast so using that kicker was my strategy. If the course were a little softer I wouldn't use that kicker strategy (simply because it wouldn't work very well. Even with firm and fast conditions throughout I don't have a problem with landing the ball on the right half of the green but as you know that will generally result in the ball getting off the back left of the green, which actually is not at all a bad place to be for a pretty easy recovery chip back up the green to the flag.

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