[jkinney]

Thank you Pat Mucci for finally climbing over the berm in back of Alps (did you ring Joe McBride's bell ?) and bringing us to Redan. Your descriptions of its nuances are superb as usual.
Thank you TEPaul for your many spot-on insights. And thank you John Mayhugh for your photos.

Not for nothing was Redan named one of Golf Magazine's 18 greatest holes in the world and exalted by Crenshaw as the best of all the Par 3's. Many of the reasons for this have been stated in the preceding posts on this thread. I would only add that of all the tee shots in golf,
I know of none that requires more pure vizualization of ball flight in one's mind's eye prior to stepping up and taking address. To say that it is a pure feel shot is to understate, but there are no words past "feel" in my golf vocabulary.

What a sensational golf hole it is, and I must say that I find it far superior to North Berwick's - but that could be another thread entirely.

[Patrick_Mucci]

JKinney,

I think that's a good point.

It's clearly a feel hole, in fact, the actual yardage sometimes seems to cloud the decision making process when it comes to club selection.

You see the hole, the target, but, you can feel that wind and you understand how it can affect the club you select.

I've seen guys stand on that tee and take an inordinately long time before they select their club, and, it's not always the right club.

One of the things I like about the hole is the vast uncertainty it seems to create.

With a lot of par 3's you merely dial in the distance, select your club for that distance, and swing away.

But, not here.

Hole location so influences play, for me.

I don't want to be short if the hole is cut in the back and I don't want to be long if the hole is cut to the front.  I want to make sure that I leave myself a reasonable, not a difficult, recovery if I miss the green, so I tend to try to build in margins for error in my initial club selection.

And, just hitting the green doesn't insure a par.

It can be a difficult green to putt, especially with the wind blowing.

I'm ALWAYS happy to walk off with a par.

[TEPaul]

I sure don't have a photo of it and I doubt anyone on here would either but it's too bad we can hang a photo of Piping's redan up here on this particular hole thread as a comparison to this one. I've played them both for over fifty years and in shot-value playability I think they are real, real close. Not to mention that Piping's redan is probably the second copy of the redan ever done in this world, right after NGLA's. Piping Rock was Macdonald's next course after NGLA begun probably in 1911 or 1912. It opened in 1913. It's the course I grew up on, and if and when my father took me out to Southampton when I was in my teens and early 20s it was NGLA we always played.

[Patrick_Mucci]

TEPaul,

I think the overall elevation of NGLA's Redan, high on that ridge, combined with the Trade winds make it play entirely different and more difficult than  Piping Rock's.

For me, Piping Rock's Redan is much easier due to the trajectory of the tee shot due to the respective elevations of the tee and green, and the general absence of comparitive winds.

Let's stay on topic by staying at NGLA.

[TEPaul]

"Let's stay on topic by staying at NGLA."

No problem.


But if you and I are going to stick just with the redan at NGLA, I've got to say you've probably played that course a whole lot more than me and in my varied ground conditions, even though I've probably known the course longer than you have. As I said earlier, most all the times I've played it in recent years the course really was producing what I call the IMM, and that's very important to know if one wants to understand what I say about that hole and why and how to best play it.

For that reason I tend to side with that classic redan strategy and shot. But I'm sure you've seen the course many more times when the ground is more receptive than I have.

If any hole I've seen and played in my life and travels in golf more completely exempifies the beauty and necessity of F&F thoughout (IMM) in a strategic and shot-making context than this one, I'm not aware of it right now! Well, sort of!

To be honest, Patrick, this is precisely why I'm such a huge proponent of firm and fast and the Ideal Maintenance Meld-----eg holes like this one and there're aren't many quite like it that require such interesting and perhaps inscrutable thought and strategy when the course gets that way.

There actually is one that tops it for interesting/challenging/inscrutable strategic shot-making and execution with a real IMM and that's Myopia's #16. Not the same kind of hole (even though it is a par 3) strategies or shot-choice but nevertheless---Whoa---intense, and the additional beauty of it is it's soooo old! 

[Patrick_Mucci]

TEPaul,

I agree.

Not to sidetrack, but Pine Tree just sent a letter out to the membership stating that the conditioning objective at Pine Tree is and will be Fast & Firm conditions.

The MM is critical to optimizing playing conditions

[Bill_McBride]

Pat:

Most of my rounds in recent years were in and around the Singles Tournament and it seems the greens and entire course were generally pretty ideally firm and fast so using that kicker was my strategy. If the course were a little softer I wouldn't use that kicker strategy (simply because it wouldn't work very well. Even with firm and fast conditions throughout I don't have a problem with landing the ball on the right half of the green but as you know that will generally result in the ball getting off the back left of the green, which actually is not at all a bad place to be for a pretty easy recovery chip back up the green to the flag.

One of the big differences between the NGLA Redan and the North Berwick Redan is the lack of bunkers behind the NB hole.  If you are long you have that easy chip back up that Tom describes.  At NGLA there are a couple of bunkers that come into play behind the Redan bunker and toward the back of the green.  You don't have those at North Berwick.

[Ed Oden]

In my limited experience, when the hole is cut toward the back of the green, being long and left isn't a bad location to recover from since the slope of the green will aid in your recovery.

Patrick, I agree that long left is a good miss to a pin on the left side of the green.  But as I recall the fescue comes into play over there.  Don't you need to be careful not to overcook it too much?

On a separate note, I find redans to be an exceedingly difficult hole design.  I can't think of a single one where I step to the tee thinking of birdie.  Rather, I am always just hoping to find a way to claw out a par while avoiding a big number.  Excluding holes that have redan-like qualities but are not really redans, are there any redans that are easy? 

Ed

[jkinney]

And the other main difference between North Berwick's original and CBM's adaptation at The National is the hill in front of the entirety of North Berwick's green and the depression on the hill's back side in front of the green. The green is almost invisible from the tee. I basically said "Yuck" to myself when I first saw it. Wisely, IMO, CBM made a hill on the right front and a depression on the left front, thereby combining the two elements while keeping the green visible from the tee. One can see one's ball bounding about once it finds ground.

Both the North Berwick original and #4 at NGLA fit seamlessly into the land. The same cannot be said about either Piping Rock's #3 or Shinnecock's #7, both of which look manufactured, IMO,( though I have a fondness for Shinny's #7, as it was the site of my one and only hole-in-one !)

[John Mayhugh]

Both the North Berwick original and #4 at NGLA fit seamlessly into the land.

This is shown somewhat by the last photo that I posted (from 5 fwy).  I wish that the photo was a bit better, but it does at least give you some sense of the land and how the hole fits it so well.

[Patrick_Mucci]

Ed Oden,

There's a substantive buffer of rough behind the green BEFORE you reach the taller fescue.

If you've overcooked it that much, you deserve a dire fate.

[Anthony Gray]

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