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Jon Wiggett

  • Karma: +0/-0
Re: Will push up greens make a comeback ?
« Reply #75 on: March 03, 2009, 01:29:06 PM »
JK Moore,

the answer you have given has no relevance to the statement from Pat. It would be helpful if you first answered the statement he gave and then gave your opinion seperately. As it is you just end up looking a little desperate at not being able to come up with a relevant answer which I am sure is not the case.

As it is Pat is IMO spot on. He clearly says the existing push ups have been successful so why would you even consider building a green to a different method than one that has already enjoyed long standing success? Also, if you were foolish enough to do so you would have the headache of one green being totally different to look after and even worse playing completely different.

I think Supers often overlook the fact that their main responsibility is to prepare a the course for the playing of the game of golf and not to produce some sort of award winning sward.

Your example of the clay based, mountain course is an interesting one. It is not so usual (here in europe anyhow) to find bad clay soils although clay soils do exist. Clay soils are one of the most misunderstood things in golf course construction. Clay soils can drain pretty well if the right conditions are created. A push up green would work okay if its perk rate is suffucient.

If you have enough money to build USGA and water is not a problem and won't become one then it is a solid option. If the answer to either of these questions is no then push up is the way to go so long as it is done correctly.

If the soil is so bad that you can't incorperate it into a rootzone that will grow grass then what will happen in the fairway and rough?

TEPaul

Re: Will push up greens make a comeback ?
« Reply #76 on: March 03, 2009, 02:15:22 PM »
"TE,
I've heard the same thing.  It's due to the fact of the drainage and different materials involved in the construction.  Basically, the green will wear out over time due to failure of construction materials.  I believe the said lifespan is somewhere around 25 years."


Greg:

That certainly seems to be the consensus opinion of why USGA spec greens would be depreciable but other types aren't. However, even if that is the case, and I'm sure it probably is, that would raise some questions about the long-term economic efficacy of USGA spec greens, at least it would raise some question about the economic logic of them. ;)

Would many clubs even remember such a thing after 25 years? Seems to be sort of a "make-business" thing for the service/architecture end also. Some of these old push-ups have been around over three times that long meaning it could be assumed that in 75 years a USGA spec green would have to be built and then rebuilt twice more in that time span. 

Jeff Goldman

  • Karma: +0/-0
Re: Will push up greens make a comeback ?
« Reply #77 on: March 03, 2009, 02:26:21 PM »
"As it is Pat is IMO spot on. He clearly says the existing push ups have been successful so why would you even consider building a green to a different method than one that has already enjoyed long standing success?"

Your example of the clay based, mountain course is an interesting one. It is not so usual (here in europe anyhow) to find bad clay soils although clay soils do exist. Clay soils are one of the most misunderstood things in golf course construction. Clay soils can drain pretty well if the right conditions are created. A push up green would work okay if its perk rate is suffucient."

Again, I question the length of time it took for the push ups built on lousy soil to become successful, and whether they were successful originally or a lot of stuff had to be done over the years.  I am most familiar with OFCC, and it is clear from the records that the greens were tough for a very long time, basically because of the soil.  When the North Course was being built in 1922, an article was published in the club magazine explaining why the greens would be much better than on the other 3 courses.  The article explains that they were using something like 5 layers of stuff in construction - amended soil, gravel, hummus, and a couple other things - as opposed to the 3 layers of stuff used in the greens on the other courses (it's a fascinating pices).  There are articles explaining the difficulties with the greens, and the need for money and amendments, all the way through the 20s and 30s.  And this was when green heights were much higher.  Maybe technology has made it easier to have good push up greens on clay.

There may also be an issue of messing with soil strucuture during construction.  During the renovation of our South Course, our superintendent told us he was being very, very careful to try to match the soil structure of existing greens when doing green expansions.  Despite this care, he said it would be at least a year before he would get them down near putting green height, and maybe longer in some cases.  

Jon, you say that push ups can be fine on clay "if the right conditions are created."  What does that entail?  On the one new green we did, we were going to do a push up green, and then once the soil was looked at were going to do a push up green with a lot of drainage, and then a California green, and it got to the point where the only thing separating what was recommended from a USGA green was the gravel layer.  Nobody was comfortable that the soil could support a push up green without very significant amendments to "create the right conditions."  
That was one hellacious beaver.

Ian Larson

  • Karma: +0/-0
Re: Will push up greens make a comeback ?
« Reply #78 on: March 03, 2009, 03:02:13 PM »
OK Im back and all jacked up on Mountain Dew, coffee and dip....Ill try to catch up on some questions asked to me. Watch out Patrick! ;D


I was thinking about this all night and Im pretty sure it was the last thing I thought about as I dozed off. Its like counting sheep. This is my first thought....

           We need to stop looking at the different greens construction methods and the materials associated with them as "brands" and start
           thinking of them as simply "growing mediums". I really sense a tone of disdain when it comes to USGA spec greens, and I think
           there is more to it than the greens construction method and materials they recommend. Is it possible, bare with me on this, that we
           often hear these negative tones because of personal opinions about the USGA as an association in general? With some of the drama
           associated with them in the past few years with the 2004 Open or the Walter Driver era, could it be possible that emotions or opinions
           are spilling over into their agronomics? Is it a bad thing that the "USGA green" has the name "USGA" slapped on to it? Almost as if
           the method has been branded and the common consumer ( club member, super, avid golfer, whatever) has come to despise the
           USGA's research and recommendations? I think so and feel this may make for a thread topic.

           But back to different greens construction methods and the common opinion of them...

           USGA greens construction materials are not purchased from Far Hills, NJ and they do not come in a box with the USGA brand name on
           it. The USGA, as we all know, simply funded a tremendous amount of research on new greens construction methods since the 60's.
           Experimenting with different materials I believe they started with a few concepts that they held true.

           1. The game of golf and golf turf began in the sandy linksland on the UK coastlines, turf already revealed what it likes to grow on.

           2. Greens not only needed to drain on the surface, they needed to be free draining through the profile. And I think they were seeing
                     the most successful greens being the push-up greens that were built on sandy sites such as Shinnecock, NGLA etc.. I would
                     also bet that they were seeing the less successful greens being more inland that utilized the heavier soils with a clay content.

           3. With the most successful sand based push-ups Im sure they were seeing a problem with nutrient retention and efficiency when
                     compared to the inland soil push-ups with a higher organic matter content.

           (None of these are anything factual that I got right out of the history books but I think its some pretty good speculation as to
           how a USGA green concept evolved.)

           I think that it is very basic knowledge that grass likes to grow in an enviornment that is not compacted, fairly drains and contains some
           organic matter content. THIS IS WHAT THE USGA GREEN ACCOMPLISHES. The USGA green IMO is the best of the 2 other extremes
           that are also the 2 other popular methods of green construction. The California Green and the soil push-up green.

           The California Green works, and it can work very well. And there are many California Greens out there that are proven successes. But
           Ca greens are straight sand, no organic content. And the first step towards success is with choosing the right sand. But even if the
           right sand is used and it drains very well there is an issue with its nutrient retention and efficiency. Supers could find themselves
           fertilizing with higher rates or at increased frequencies because the CEC of straight sand is naturally very low

           Just like a super with soil greens is always aerifying and sanding the greens to improve drainage, a super with a Ca green is always
           applying organics to increase nutrient retention and efficiency as well as WATER retention and efficiency. A Ca green can drain
           TOO GOOD. The application of organics will make water and fertilizer use more efficient and cost effective. You could also include
           the  increased use of expensive water retention wetting agents.

           On the other end of the spectrum is the soil push-up. Soil obviously has better nutrient and water efficiency characteristics than
           straight sand because of its organic content which lends to a higher CEC. The problem with soil is that it has a naturally higher
           bulk density, meaning it is very compactable.

           As bulk density increases....
     
           1. Pore space for healthy root growth decreases

           2. Pore space for water infiltration decreases

           3. Pore space for oxygen and carbon dioxide exchange decreases


           
           So lets compare the 2 ends of the spectrum, soil push-up vs. california, but lets avoid any "branding". So lets use.....


         

                                                 DIRT vs STRAIGHT SAND = COMBINATION

         
                                  DIRT                                                                    STRAIGHT SAND

                Excellent Nutrient retention (hi CEC)                               Poor nutrient retention (low CEC)

                       Excellent water retention                                                Poor water retention

                  High bulk density (compaction)                                     Low Bulk density (no compaction)


                                                 
                                                                     COMBINATION

                                                     Excellent nutrient retention (high CEC)

                                                     Little to no compaction (low bulk density)

                                                      Excellent water retention (micropores)

                                                      Excellent water infiltration (macropores)


             Its obvious that the combination is what resulted as the USGA spec green. Its also obvious that what was achieved by the USGA's
             research is a specification that takes the best attributes from the soil and the sand which is the addition of certain percentages of
             peat to a straight sand that is spec'ed to achieve good drainage. The end result is a growing medium that balances everything
             needed in an optimal grass growing enviornment.


             We also need to look at what the gravel layer is used for and why it is so crucial to USGA spec success...

             1. The gravel layer primarily acts as an interface between the sand and the drainage lines preventing the movement of sand into the
                       drainlines. The affects of sand going into the drainline would be clogging, and then loss of sand from the profile which would
                       then cause a settling effect on the surface creating sinkholes. The sand and gravel sizes are specified so the sand will "bridge"
                       on top of the gravel.

             2. The gravel also acts as an equalizer with water percolation in the greens profile. Water will ALWAYS travel the path of least
                       resistance. "Least resistance" is what soil hydrology is all about.

                       Resistance is created by a few factors.  Friction. Ionic Charges ( + and - ), and Pressure.

                       The gravel layer provides a consistent percolation of water across the green profile because of the change in hydraulic pressure
                       from the sand layer into the gravel layer. Pore space goes from small to large. Water is effected ionically as it passes through
                       the profile while gravity draws down plant unavailable water through the macropores, the large pore space in the gravel layer
                       creates a change in pressure leading the water to a destination as it follows its path of least resistance to the large pores. The
                       consistent larger pore space in the gravel layer creates a consistent pressure across the green. Helping it drain consistently.





DISADVANTAGES TO USGA SPECIFICATION GREEN CONSTRUCTION....


             Nothing is perfect. There are disadvantages to using the USGA method. But like anything, the disadvantages need to be weighed against the advantages. The project needs to take into account all its specific details and assess if the risks are worth taking in the investment.

             
             1. Cost
                         
                 USGA greens can cost around the range of $15 - $18 a square foot if specified materials are used.

             
             2. Recontouring

                 It is true that the option of recontouring at a later date can be costly because of the 2 layers needing to match each other. If a
                 USGA green is recontoured at a later date, the 12 inch sand layer across the green is altered. Creating spots that are deeper
                 and spots that are shallower. This inconsistency affects the consistent hydraulic properties of the design. It creates dry spots and
                 wet spots.




MYTHS ABOUT OTHER DISADVANTAGES TO USGA GREENS

   
            There are alot of myths floating around the industry and in here on GCA.com that I think need to be put to sleep....


            1. Settling

                Settling does occur in USGA greens. But if constructed and PREPARED correctly, before a single seed is sown, ALL settling will
                occur after the greens mix is installed and before any seed is put down. The greens I was taught on, and using the same
                process to this day, I have never seen settling to the point that I would say that it is a problem with USGA greens.
 
                I have been taught to calculate about a 2-3% settling percentage when calculating the amount of sand to order for a project, in
                addition to ordering another 5-10% of the total order to make sure enough is ordered and there is extra for topdressing. So with
                that, the green will settle around 2-3%.

                The reason I have never seen settling to be a problem is because of the painstaking measures taken to properly "burp" the green
                through proper preparation techniques. If a contractor jumps the gun because of a construction schedule and seeds the green
                before it has completed all of its settling, more settling will occur as the green is being established and grown in. No bueno. :'(

                           
            2. Perk Rates

                To say that a USGA green will perk slower is ludicrous. Sand always drains faster than soil. Always. The uninformed would say
                something like that because they dont know the whole picture.

                A USGA green will perk slow or slower than a soil if it has been mismanaged. The reason for the slower perk rate is because of the
                accumulation of thatch and organic material in the upper few inches in the profile. A greens perk rate will ALWAYS be as fast as its
                top few inches.

                If a super isnt doing his job by matching the annual rate of organic matter accumulation with a properly designed aerification and
                topdressing program, the organic matter wins the race and slows down the perk rate of water starting in the upper part of the
               profile.

                Having a core profile physical analysis test done by a lab, which is testing the profile from top to bottom, will reveal that even when
                the organic matter is slowing down perk rates up top. The sand in the middle and at the bottom of the profile are still perking
                magnificently. Even 10 and 20 years later. Its the supers fault and responsibility when it comes to problems up top, not the USGA
                green.


            3. Disease

                This one cracks me up because there is no research or studies out there to support that USGA greens create a higher disease
                occurance. If there is Im sure it wasnt done in every conceivable region of the world in every conceivable climate to scientifically
                support the claim. With the hundreds of different variables that occur from club to club, climate to climate. It is virtually impossible
                to prove that one single variable (USGA greens) are the cause for more disease in contrast to soil greens. Soil greens get disease
                just as easy as sand greens.


            4. Poor Quality

                Really? Isnt poor quality in the hands of the people that decide on the materials used and how they install and prepare them? How
                could it be the USGA and their methods fault?

                If the proper raw materials are used and they are constructed, installed, prepped, grown in and maintained properly the green will
                work how it was designed to work. In any climate or region of the world.





To address what Pat has brought up, again, when he started this thread....

         
                Yes Pat,  you are right that a push-up green will always be easier to come back and recontour.

                Yes Pat,  USGA greens cost money

                Yes Pat,  USGA greens take more time than push-ups

                No Pat,   push-up greens will not come back. They have always been around and a viable option. IF THE SOIL DRAINS WELL.

                No Pat,   USGA are not hard to build. Its not hard to shape the native soil to what you want the green surface to be, and then
                             measure 6" for the gravel and 12" on top of that for the sand. USGA greens can be made very severe very easily.

                Yes Pat,  push-up greens have functioned well for their 80 year history, because of being ammended with sand for 80 years.

                Yes Pat,  a clubs 80 year old greens could have always been successful because when they were built, the grass being grown on
                             them was being cut 5x of a higher height while they were still mostly soil. Greens being cut at .500" will easily be able
                             to survive in a heavy soil. Just like the same grass is surviving well on our current day approaches. The approaches
                             of today were the greens of yesteryear. Having 500% more leaf tissue is going to improve the root system by 500%. That
                             is a HUGE difference in how a green is managed. HUGE.

                             As technology, agronomy, playing conditions and member expectations improved and increased. The original push-ups
                             had already been "hitting the ground running" since they were built to be groomed and conditioned for these lower
                             mowing heights and smoother greens. Whether or not agronomists and supers realized they were doing it. The
                             incorporation of sand into the profile from day one provided a soil green that would eventually drain better, mow lower,
                             and putt smoother. But with this came more stress on the plant and the need for ideal growing conditions.




In general, per Pats retorts to me and to everyone in general, I dont claim to know everything about anything in my life. Specifically golf, golf architecture, golf agronomy or golf course construction. All I do know is that I am a farm boy from central pennsylvania that loves the game of golf and agriculture. Ive spent the last 13 years of my life learning as much as I could about it from both the books and the field experience.

Ive encountered problems agronomically from all different angles throughout my career and have personally seen what works and what doesnt work. And specifically why or why not. This is why I feel very confident speaking, writing and debating it.



My last point I would like to make is this....

 
                  Dont look at the different techniques of green construction as "brands". Look at the raw materials used in them and how they
                  are used in harmony with each other.

                  Beyond that look at the physics of the method. The soil science, the hydrology, the chemistry. There isnt a method out there
                  that is perfect. There is a time and place for all 3 methods.

                  There also isnt a method that is trying to get someone "to buy into the science", like its trying to be a salesman and pull the
                  wool over your eyes. Science is science is science. It doesnt need to be sold. It sells itself. It proves itself.

                  Before making claims against one method or another one needs to properly troubleshoot the problem correctly and fairly, based
                  on proven science, research and the scientific method. To say that the clubs greens across the street has more disease and
                  they have USGA greens doesnt prove anything.



This is way too long and I know I havent answered some questions and comments from others. I will get to them later this evening.   
           
       
                             

               

                                                                 
           





                           

           
           
« Last Edit: March 03, 2009, 03:53:48 PM by Ian Larson »

John Moore II

Re: Will push up greens make a comeback ?
« Reply #79 on: March 03, 2009, 03:08:31 PM »
JK Moore,

the answer you have given has no relevance to the statement from Pat. It would be helpful if you first answered the statement he gave and then gave your opinion seperately. As it is you just end up looking a little desperate at not being able to come up with a relevant answer which I am sure is not the case.

As it is Pat is IMO spot on. He clearly says the existing push ups have been successful so why would you even consider building a green to a different method than one that has already enjoyed long standing success? Also, if you were foolish enough to do so you would have the headache of one green being totally different to look after and even worse playing completely different.

I think Supers often overlook the fact that their main responsibility is to prepare a the course for the playing of the game of golf and not to produce some sort of award winning sward.

Your example of the clay based, mountain course is an interesting one. It is not so usual (here in europe anyhow) to find bad clay soils although clay soils do exist. Clay soils are one of the most misunderstood things in golf course construction. Clay soils can drain pretty well if the right conditions are created. A push up green would work okay if its perk rate is suffucient.

If you have enough money to build USGA and water is not a problem and won't become one then it is a solid option. If the answer to either of these questions is no then push up is the way to go so long as it is done correctly.

If the soil is so bad that you can't incorperate it into a rootzone that will grow grass then what will happen in the fairway and rough?

Is it not somewhat easier to grow fairway and rough grass than to grow the grass on greens? And isn't subsurface drainage a bit more important on greens than on the fairways? That is what I was asking with the clay based soils, since water moves through the dense clay far slower than it does through sand.

I agree, I think Pat is on target as well on a pre-existing course. If the greens have been proven to work on a given site, then there is little reason they could not work again using a push-up method, assuming the variables are kept mostly the same. I was thinking of that as I was writing the first answer, but did not put it in. I will go back and edit.
« Last Edit: March 03, 2009, 03:21:07 PM by John K. Moore »

Patrick_Mucci

Re: Will push up greens make a comeback ?
« Reply #80 on: March 03, 2009, 03:43:14 PM »
"Due to the cost of construction of a USGA spec green, I do feel like if the site is right (sandy to sandy loam) then the building of push ups would be the way to go, no doubt"

Bingo.  As a member (or even someone with some authority on a renovation project), I'm not going to disagree with our superintendent who, though very comfortable with the 80 year-old push up greens at the club, thinks that in building a new green the crummy clay soil makes the risk of a push up green too great.  Would you try to insist that push up greens be built no matter what the soil is like Patrick?

Yes, for two reasons.
One, if they were successfully built before, chances are they can be successfully built again.
Two, if you build your USGA green it will never be the same as the other 17 greens, in playability and maintainance.
So, I'd go with the push-up.
You can always go with the USGA green at some point in the future.


On a renovation project where the greens have been proven to work, regardless of soil conditions, then certainly, stay with the push-up greens that have been proven to work on this site and will be cheaper to reconstruct.

But wouldn't it be more cost effective on a new construction site with suspect soil (like a course in the mountains with a very dense clay soil base or something of that sort) to go ahead and build the green to USGA specifications?


JKM, You answered your own question by predisposing the answer.
On a site with bad soil and/or drainage, USGA greens would seem to make sense.  But, why pick that site ?  Greens aren't the only feature that requires good soil.



I mean, if you build the entire course with push-up greens, with the entire cost of construction being, say $5 million, and they fail, what then? Now you have to pump in another $1 million or whatever in order to convert the greens to USGA spec, not to mention lost revenue from having to close the course. That does not seem to make the most sense in the situation where the soil is all ready poor. (Again, his is assuming a new construction course, not a renovation. And when you decide to pick this apart, like I know you will, please don't complain about the dollar amounts I used. Those are general figures to just forward the idea of reconstruction costs, not concrete numbers.)


As I stated above, your premise predispose the answer.



John Moore II

Re: Will push up greens make a comeback ?
« Reply #81 on: March 03, 2009, 03:53:09 PM »
Perhaps the mountain example was not the best. How many courses have been built in Florida on less than great soil though? I would say a great many. And with very low water tables preventing proper drainage. I am not sure why you would pick a poor site. I don't understand why the sites were picked for Old Works, Liberty National and other land reclamation courses. But they seemed to have worked out well (likely with USGA Spec greens)

Jon Wiggett

  • Karma: +0/-0
Re: Will push up greens make a comeback ?
« Reply #82 on: March 03, 2009, 04:06:15 PM »
Jeff,

you and many others seem to think push ups are pure soil with no additions. This is not the case and usually you have to add some sand to help the drainage.

Ian, condense it. Even I got bored reading this overly long yet incomplete post. By incomplete I mean you only look at the one side of the coin and ignor what doesn't fit.

JKM, done the right way no. That doesn't mean that there is only one way though. Also, isn't there the danger if the water perks to quickly that the grass will find itself dry out?

TX Golf

  • Karma: +0/-0
Re: Will push up greens make a comeback ?
« Reply #83 on: March 03, 2009, 04:12:08 PM »
Ian,

Awesome post, thanks for taking the time to write all that out!!!

Ian Larson

  • Karma: +0/-0
Re: Will push up greens make a comeback ?
« Reply #84 on: March 03, 2009, 04:34:36 PM »
Jon,

I know Im sure you have push-up greens and you are successful with them which is great. It may seem like Im looking at one side of the coin because it seems like Im a spokesman for the USGA and only in support of the USGA spec.

But Im not only in support of a USGA. Im in support of any soil being used for greens construction that drain well. Im in support of making someone realize that their push-up is successful because of the incorporation of sand if it did not already have it natively.

You are completely wrong when you say clay will drain well. Clay does not drain well because clay is comprised of fines bound together, fines in a soil are the antithesis to a porous sand.

I never said clay will never drain and is impermeable by water. It does drain, but as fast as a snail runs. If a clay fairway or rough seems to be draining well its mostly due to surface run-off. Clay is not misunderstood.


I know that post was too long. But I could care less because those are the facts about soil greens, sand greens and USGA greens. Im sure it may be repetitive to someone in the business of green keeping. But that is a condensed version of soil 101 that I feel is a nice post to refer to for all the readers who are not in the business and dont study agronomy.

There are readers on here asking questions (which is great) or forming uninformed opinions (which is not great). There are also alot of grossly incorrect claims being made.

At some point in this thread someone needed to take the time to get the facts out. I may not be completely correct about ALL that I wrote. And some will disagree, probably Pat Mucci. But these are way more science / fact based than they are opinion.

I know there is more I could add to that already long post such as bad water quality. But all in all its a 5 minute read full of the facts and sound agronomics. But I wouldnt call it biased and incomplete.

Soil is soil, and my approach is from raw materials and how they perform. Your approach is much more close minded than mine because you've probably only worked with soil push-up (I dont know, just assuming) and are used to them. Know yours inside and out, and are very successful. And thats great. But step away from your personal preference and look at it from a purely mineral and soil hydrology point of view.


If you do that you may see past the blinders and understand where Im coming from. Ive done that and see the whole spectrum of scenarios.

Thats why my stance is STILL that I would love to have a soil site that contained soil suitable to build push-up greens that drained well.


If I left so many important points out of that already monstrous post, could you please let me know what they are?
« Last Edit: March 03, 2009, 04:42:15 PM by Ian Larson »

Patrick_Mucci

Re: Will push up greens make a comeback ?
« Reply #85 on: March 03, 2009, 04:39:41 PM »
Jeff Goldman,

I can't speak to the sub-soil conditions at OFCC.

Recently, at a club I'm very familiar with, a green was being reconstructed.

A temporary green was established about 40-50 yards short of the reconstructed green.

The temporary green was established by merely mowing the fairway down, incrementally.

Eventually, the temporary became a spectacular green, with natural contours and putting speeds that matched the other 17 greens.

I know of many greens that are essentially fairways cut to green height.

While subsoil conditions have to be conducive, in the northeast a good deal of the soil is a mixture of clay and sand and drainage is more than adequate.  Obviously, the more sand, the more drainage should improve.

In Southeast Florida, east of the Turnpike, most of the soil is predominantly sand.

It would seem that USGA greens have become a brand, and to a degree, a security blanket of sorts.

When you think of the vast number of push-up or natural grade greens that have been performing well for 80-70-60 years, you have to admit that they've surpassed any reasonable warrantee period, and that they've done so without a great deal of technical assistance.

Is growing grass on native soils that hard  ?
« Last Edit: March 03, 2009, 04:41:37 PM by Patrick_Mucci »

Patrick_Mucci

Re: Will push up greens make a comeback ?
« Reply #86 on: March 03, 2009, 04:48:57 PM »

Perhaps the mountain example was not the best. How many courses have been built in Florida on less than great soil though?

In Southeast Florida, probably every course built west of the Turnpike.


I would say a great many. And with very low water tables preventing proper drainage. I am not sure why you would pick a poor site.

Chances are the site was primarily picked for residential development with the golf course being an amenity.

And, don't ever forget a primary reason, COST


I don't understand why the sites were picked for Old Works, Liberty National and other land reclamation courses.

Liberty and Bayonne seemed to make sense in terms of proximity to dense population centers and relative acquisition costs.


But they seemed to have worked out well (likely with USGA Spec greens)


Bayonne is a marvel.
From a constant elevation of 10 ASL to what exists now is something to see.  However, a good deal of the imported soil, either 7 or 14 million cubic yards, wasn't the most desirable soil to grow grass on.  I'm not familiar with the specific green specs, but, I can find out what they were.



Patrick_Mucci

Re: Will push up greens make a comeback ?
« Reply #87 on: March 03, 2009, 05:12:04 PM »
I wanted to address the issue of disease in USGA greens, which was pooh-poohed by Ian.

One of the layers incorporated in USGA specs was a layer of "river rock"

Typically, a project, and it's component elements is put out to bid.

In bidding "River Rock" due to its volume and weight, shipping costs must be factored in and considered.  If you ship tons of material from California to Florida it's far more expensive than shipping tons of material from a nearby county.  And, at most clubs, cost is a deciding factor.

In a great number of cases, three vendors are used.
Most are local or regional vendors, that is, they mine/acquire the material from relatively nearby sites.

Much of the river rock mined/acquired locally, when placed under scrutiny or a microscope, has a popcorn like quality or appearance.

The ideal river rock would be like marbles.

Picture a 12 inch layer of popcorn.
Now picture pouring water over it (rain and/or irrigation)
The configuration of the river rock (popcorn) predisposes it to retain water in the nooks and crannys.  Other addititives likewise find these recepticles.  That water becomes stagnant, the additives accumulate.
Enter stage left, disease and functional problems.

The product is poorer in function and more prone to disease when compared to greens that have smooth, or river rock like marbles.

But, smooth, marbles like river rock isn't found locally or regionally, so the material is obtained locally, therefore most of the greens constructed with the "popcorn" like river rock are prone to malfunction and disease.

To find smooth, marble like river rock, you have to import it from greater distances, driving up your costs significantly.

Since most bid jobs opt for the lowest bid, the incremental cost of importing superior river rock from great distances can't be justified or funded, thus, the club settles for what seems like an acceptable solution.

But, that solution is prone to malfunction and DISEASE

Just because a green is healthy and functioning adequately on opening day, or a year after opening day, doesn't mean that the green will withstand the ultimate test, the test of time.

If one is building or rebuilding greens, in addition to consulting with the USGA, a club or developer should seek and retain highly skilled professionals in particular areas of expertise, unless of course, the club feels comfortable relying solely on the expertise of the construction crew.
« Last Edit: March 03, 2009, 05:13:55 PM by Patrick_Mucci »

Greg Chambers

  • Karma: +0/-0
Re: Will push up greens make a comeback ?
« Reply #88 on: March 03, 2009, 05:38:38 PM »
Where exactly is this river rock layer.  I've never seen a USGA spec call for river rock. 
"It's good sportsmanship to not pick up lost golf balls while they are still rolling.”

TEPaul

Re: Will push up greens make a comeback ?
« Reply #89 on: March 03, 2009, 05:43:43 PM »
Ian Larson:

Thanks so much for all your input on this thread, particulrly your post #78.

Thankfully this thread will always be here and can be referred to. I haven't read it all but I certainly plan to.

I realize some may take issue with some of the things you've said and maintained but if they do I hope it's intelligent and not argumentative in some trivial way.

By the way, Ian, if you want to know something about what is sometimes considered to be the early precusor to the USGA spec type green construction method do a Google search on one Frederick Winslow Taylor. He was a rich Philadelphia Quaker, and obviously quite the pure inventor and famous for something other than a green construction method.

He's considered most famous for his development of what was known as "The Scientific Management Method" which essentially set the model for modern management/employee relationships and employee methods. If Taylor could be described in a word or term it would probably be sort of a genius-like efficiency expert.

His green method at Sunnybrook in Philadelphia (early teens) got a lot of attention and Pine Valley's Crump was in the process of transitioning his greens to Taylor's method (six were done before Crump died). Taylor was one of founding members of PV. Hugh Wilson of Merion was very impressed with him and when Taylor died in 1915 Wilson's efforts to get his (and his personal estate foreman Bender's) collected research to the US Dept of Agriculture sort of began the process of creating the USGA Green Section and the long term USGA/US Dept of Agriculture relationship in golf agronomic research.
« Last Edit: March 03, 2009, 05:48:37 PM by TEPaul »

Jeff Goldman

  • Karma: +0/-0
Re: Will push up greens make a comeback ?
« Reply #90 on: March 03, 2009, 05:54:33 PM »
"you and many others seem to think push ups are pure soil with no additions. "

Nope, didn't say that, don't believe that, but if you have to add so much amendment to make a green work, then maybe you need to consider an alternative construction method.  In our case, we ended up simply a gravel layer short of a USGA green, and so went all the way.

My disagreement with some folks here is over the question of whether there is a single correct answer regardless of individual conditions on the site.  Someone stating that push up greens are ALWAYS the way to go is, in my view, as wrong as someone saying that USGA greens are ALWAYS the way to go.  Even noting that push up greens have existed on the property for 80 years isn't good enough, without consulting your superintendent.  He may want to take a soil sample and have it tested for composition, porosity, etc. etc.  Again, it may have taken decades for the green to reach this level of functionality (or not).  If you take one of these great greens, strip the sod, plough it up and mix up the soil, then replant it, does anyone think that you would get as good a green as you had?

Patrick, you hit the nail on the head when you said that "subsoil conditions have to be conducive."  That ends the discussion.
That was one hellacious beaver.

Bryan Bergner

Re: Will push up greens make a comeback ?
« Reply #91 on: March 03, 2009, 05:55:02 PM »
Mr. Mucci

Your post stating: "Is growing grass on native soils that hard  ?"

Will you please elaborate on this statement?  What is your definition of "hard"?

BB

Ian Larson

  • Karma: +0/-0
Re: Will push up greens make a comeback ?
« Reply #92 on: March 03, 2009, 06:00:32 PM »
TEPaul,

I actually was thinking it last night and forgot to type it, but yourself and Brad Anderson came to mind and I wanted to ask if the two of you had any historic collectives of this in your archives.

I dont know if Im dead on with my speculation of the evolution of the modified green. But I think its a good foundation and a start if it hasnt already been researched and timelined. From what youve already shown in that post, it looks like it has. I will google that tonight and thank you.

I would have to imagine that there were challenges with maintaining greens in the Philly and New York areas where the native soil was the only option, whether it drained well or not. From the reading I have already done about the early green sections in the northeast these guys were no dummies and had to make the correlation between sandy sites in the UK and Long Island to the clay sites in the newly developing courses located more inland.  

Greg Chambers

  • Karma: +0/-0
Re: Will push up greens make a comeback ?
« Reply #93 on: March 03, 2009, 06:18:42 PM »
Along the same lines as FW Taylor's groundbreaking work...

CB McDonald was building greens at St. Louis CC on modified root zone with drainage as early as 1914.

Donald Ross was building greens at Scioto CC on modified root zone with drainage as early as 1916.

In these cases, among many others, it was obvious that these guys new that traditional push up style greens wouldn't work given the native soils, they were already developing alternatives...
"It's good sportsmanship to not pick up lost golf balls while they are still rolling.”

Patrick_Mucci

Re: Will push up greens make a comeback ?
« Reply #94 on: March 03, 2009, 06:19:43 PM »

Where exactly is this river rock layer.  I've never seen a USGA spec call for river rock. 


Greg,

River Rock was the layer between the soil containing the drainage tiles, and the sand layer, which was usually 4 inches thick.  The River Rock layer was usually 4 inches or more .  On top of the sand was 12-14 inches of root zone mix.

RZM
Sand
River Rock
Soil

The USGA subsequently modified the strata.

John Gosselin

  • Karma: +0/-0
Re: Will push up greens make a comeback ?
« Reply #95 on: March 03, 2009, 06:21:26 PM »
I wanted to address the issue of disease in USGA greens, which was pooh-poohed by Ian.

One of the layers incorporated in USGA specs was a layer of "river rock"

Typically, a project, and it's component elements is put out to bid.

In bidding "River Rock" due to its volume and weight, shipping costs must be factored in and considered.  If you ship tons of material from California to Florida it's far more expensive than shipping tons of material from a nearby county.  And, at most clubs, cost is a deciding factor.

In a great number of cases, three vendors are used.
Most are local or regional vendors, that is, they mine/acquire the material from relatively nearby sites.

Much of the river rock mined/acquired locally, when placed under scrutiny or a microscope, has a popcorn like quality or appearance.

The ideal river rock would be like marbles.

Picture a 12 inch layer of popcorn.
Now picture pouring water over it (rain and/or irrigation)
The configuration of the river rock (popcorn) predisposes it to retain water in the nooks and crannys.  Other addititives likewise find these recepticles.  That water becomes stagnant, the additives accumulate.
Enter stage left, disease and functional problems.

The product is poorer in function and more prone to disease when compared to greens that have smooth, or river rock like marbles.

But, smooth, marbles like river rock isn't found locally or regionally, so the material is obtained locally, therefore most of the greens constructed with the "popcorn" like river rock are prone to malfunction and disease.

To find smooth, marble like river rock, you have to import it from greater distances, driving up your costs significantly.

Since most bid jobs opt for the lowest bid, the incremental cost of importing superior river rock from great distances can't be justified or funded, thus, the club settles for what seems like an acceptable solution.

But, that solution is prone to malfunction and DISEASE

Just because a green is healthy and functioning adequately on opening day, or a year after opening day, doesn't mean that the green will withstand the ultimate test, the test of time.

If one is building or rebuilding greens, in addition to consulting with the USGA, a club or developer should seek and retain highly skilled professionals in particular areas of expertise, unless of course, the club feels comfortable relying solely on the expertise of the construction crew.

Pat, who's research or opinion is that? What disease is apparently starting in the gravel layer?

Just curious
Great golf course architects, like great poets, are born, note made.
Meditations of a Peripatetic Golfer 1922

Patrick_Mucci

Re: Will push up greens make a comeback ?
« Reply #96 on: March 03, 2009, 06:21:31 PM »
BB,

Do you have access to a dictionary ?

Greg Chambers

  • Karma: +0/-0
Re: Will push up greens make a comeback ?
« Reply #97 on: March 03, 2009, 06:36:49 PM »
Pat,

That's the layer I suspected you were talking about.  It's commonly referred to as the gravel layer, so I just wanted to make sure we were on the same page.  With that said, I've never seen where the preferred gravel material is round and smooth.  Typically when spec'ing a gravel, one would already have their sand spec'ed, and subsequently find a gravel that would work properly with the sand so to avoid having to use a choker layer.  Whether that be a smooth and round or an angular particle need not matter, as long as it works with the sand you're using.  I can see the point where an improper gravel would lead to failure of the green.  But I think that your theory of a turf disease beginning in the gravel layer is a bit of a stretch.
"It's good sportsmanship to not pick up lost golf balls while they are still rolling.”

TEPaul

Re: Will push up greens make a comeback ?
« Reply #98 on: March 03, 2009, 06:41:16 PM »
"From the reading I have already done about the early green sections in the northeast these guys were no dummies and had to make the correlation between sandy sites in the UK and Long Island to the clay sites in the newly developing courses located more inland."

Ian:

In the last 5-6 years I've read those so-called "agronomy letters" which number a couple of thousand. Originally we were researching them for other reasons----not really to track the history of early American agronomy.

But in the last year I've read them all again, and more carefully with a mind to the early agronomic history they chronicle.

It's true they do show how American golf in the first decade of the 20th century and into the teens or even early 1920s was first learning of the vast differences in soil and soil structure, and the importance of those vast differences between basically seaside sites and inland sites or sandy sites and the old clay-like compacted sites of the basically former meadowland or particularly former farmland inland courses.

I think at first they didn't completely understand how huge it was and this is why you find men like Hugh Wilson so completely fixated on the agronomic development of his Merion courses and also Pine Valley, shortly followed by his efforts to take the research nationwide via the incipient USGA Green Section.

It is intructive to note what most of the issue was in that first visit in June 1910 Macdonald/Whigam made to Ardmore Pa to inspect the site that would be Merion East that became such a subject of those Merion threads and Moriarty's essay which I suppose he felt was to make a stronger connection with Macdonald to the architecture of Merion. If you read the letter Macdonald/Whigam wrote to MCC following their visit about 75% of it had to do with how to grow grass, particularly on a site and soil makeup like that. Macdonald's advice was that MCC should go to Baltusrol and collaborate with them if they wanted to grow grass successfully on an inland site like that.

And of course even Macdonald himself apparently didn't know enough at first about agronomics with NGLA (a real straight sand site) to know not to try to grow grass on straight sand with no topsoil amendment for nutrition or water retention. That lack of understanding cost him an early agronomic failure and perhaps two more years to officially open.

And then, unbelievably, about 3-4 years later his friend George Crump made the very same disasterous mistake at Pine Valley.

Those were the very early years in America in golf agronomic understanding that even remotely resembled what we all know and do today. They were pretty much on their own back then with no one to turn to and into course by course OJT. That's why some of the most prominent of them turned to the US Dept of Agriculture the way they did then. The US Dept of Agriculture didn't really know anything about golf grass back then either. They were essentially into forage crops and such. But at least they were scientists and botanists and they slapped the scientific analytical method on the early dwarf grasses they knew anything about and had any availability to.

Enter the early commercial seed merchants and that created one helluva dynamic that lasted over twenty years or more. At one point, in the teens they almost got President Woodrow Wilson to get the US Government via the US Dept. of Agriculture to take over the whole agronomic research and development business because some felt golf had either gotten or would get so huge in America that it was something the governement should get into for the good of the nation.

  
« Last Edit: March 03, 2009, 06:55:01 PM by TEPaul »

Eric Johnson

  • Karma: +0/-0
Re: Will push up greens make a comeback ?
« Reply #99 on: March 03, 2009, 06:51:18 PM »
The only green construction method NOT mentioned in this thread is (my favorite ;)) "The Modified USGA Green."  

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