Let me start by saying that I like both and have worked on both. My first being Ridgewood Country Club. But I dont understand when someone takes the stance that push-ups are superior. Both have positives and negatives. But it is the push ups that can have more negatives, unless the native soil is of a SIGNIFIGANT SAND PERCENTAGE. If I had a site with sandy soil I would say hell yes, lets push them up and save thousands of dollars.
Lets go back to Pats initial post. Will they make a comeback? If a new course is being built in his town of Philadelphia, NO. If a new course was being built down the road in the Pine Barrens and coastal New Jersey, YES. Theres not a developer or agronomist out there that would look at a properties heavy soil, lets say around Philadelphia or New York, and recommend using that soil for a push up green. Will it work, YES. But will the entire mission after that be to ammend it with sand to increase percolation rates, YES.
And that is why push-up greens are always trying to become USGA greens....
....a pushup green that does not have a considerable amount of sand is going to spend the rest of its existence being ammended with sand to increase water percolation rates. A USGA is designed to already be where the push-up is taking decades to get to.
Read that again......."A USGA is designed to already be where the push-up is taking decades to get to."
Thats why you have a guy like Patrick wondering if the push-up will make a comeback, because his 82 year old push-ups are working magnificently. And I know hes right with that, all of the soil push-ups in the old east coast courses built back in the turn of the century ARE working magnificently. And I envy the clubs who have the good fortune of having them. But its because they have been ammended for decades. I would not want to be a super at a new course in the New York / Philadelphia / Washington areas with native soil push-ups that have the low end of sand percentage. It would be a nightmare in the hot and humid summers and dealing with soggy greens after rains. I wouldnt take the job based purely on that. Todays expectations are different than the turn of the centuries. Owners want a new course to up to working condition a year after they are built. I can assure you that wasnt the case at the turn of the century.
To reply to Jon Wiggets points.....
"An interesting quote, where did you dig it up?Huh. Indeed, what are USGA greens designed to do?"
That would be from yours truly. When you get down to the nuts and bolts of soil science thats a very true statement, unless the
push-up is sand based native soil.
"Firstly Ian, I never said ‘SOIL push up greens’ and I did notice your quote excludes sand based push ups. So you tell me when is a push up green a soil based or sand based one???"
Push-ups can be done anywhere. On sites where soil is ideal and sites where soil is not ideal. The spirit of a push-up is to literally
"PUSH-UP" the surrounding native soil. If you have a site with a clay soil and import a sandier soil I wouldnt say you have push-up
green. So to try and answer your question, yes you never said SOIL push-up greens, but "PUSH-UP" is a universal term. Not intended
solely for sandy soil, it also includes heavier soils. Like you would find in Patrick's neck of the woods.
"Also is not the inclusion of organic matter in most USGA green mixes actually an atempt to take the mix towards what a push up green (soil or sand based) already is?"
Yes you are absolutely right. Just like the push-up is incorporating sand to become what the USGA is. The biggest difference, read this
carefully, is that the USGA incorporates the peat moss organic only once in it lifetime. At the mixing plant. After that there is no need
to continually keep adding organic.
"I am commenting form the point of a sustainable type grow in and maintenance. I do not believe that the USGA build is the one size fits all solution that many of its supporters try to push. It has big issues with lack of nutrient storage and also major problems as far as water is concerned."
I hate to say this but the USGA green is very adaptable to any climate to any circumstance, therefore it can be considered a one size
fits all solution. Now before you start attacking me on that statement, it all comes down to whether or not you have access to a good
native or local soil. If you do and its economical to use or import, your best option is to use that. But if you dont, the USGA will
ALWAYS work. In any situation. Thats why ALOT of developers just use it. Because theres less risk for the reward.
As far as nutrient storage you are way off and should probably refer back to the Turf 101 book and read up on the CEC chapter.
For those who dont know what CEC is its the CATION EXCHANGE CAPACITY. This is the measurement of the number of exchange sites
on a single soil colloid. The colloid is what nutrients will naturally cling to. Soil naturally has a higher CEC than sand. But that is why
USGA greens are mixed with a percentage of peat moss or organic. Peat moss has a very high CEC. So the greens mix is designed
to hold nutrients just as well as a soil green. Now if you are talking about straight sand, of course soil is better. If straight sand is
used it will spend the rest of its existence incorporating organic into its profile.
"A push up will grow in better than a USGA with out an irrigation system."
Maybe in your neck of the woods where rainfall is not a problem. But in alot of parts in the world rainfall is not consistent. And it
matter what your growing medium is my friend, no water no grow. Especially in the grow-in stage. And who is building a golf course
without an irrigation system these days?
"A push up will grow in better than a USGA if you are only allowed to use 10g/N m2 for the first 2 seasons followed by 6g there after.."
This is a generalized blanket statement. There are plenty of deficient soil sites and types out there. Just because its a push-up
doesnt mean the nutrient input goes down to zero.
I can tell you right now that Winged Foot, Merion, Oakmont and Ridgewood spray their greens once a week and apply .10 lb of N
per 1000 square feet. They have native soil push-ups. Are you going to criticize those supers for not maintaining those greens
correctly or excessively? I sure as hell wouldnt!!!
"A push up will grow in better than a USGA if your not allowed to use any Phosphor"
I agree with you
"A push up will preform better than a USGA if your not allowed to use fungicides.'
I disagree with this. I think they both are susceptible to disease equally. But I think the USGA will have a hand up with being able
to be kept drier. If your growing in or just maintaining, during a rainy season, I would much rather have a high sand based green.
I know the push-up could be sand based, if it is then great. But if I had a heavy soil push-up, the water that is SLOOOWWLLYY
moving through the profile is just incubating all the pathogens waiting in the thatch and profile.
moisture + warmth + pathogen = disease incubation
Ill leave it with that for now. My girlfriend wants me off GCA on a lovely SoCal afternoon.
