[ChipOat]

For years, the greens at Nairn had a well-deserved consensus reputation for being far superior to anyplace else in Scotland.  Then, as green fees at RDGC, TOC, et al went to the moon, the money put back into those courses improved the quality of their greens, but still never quite Nairn quality.

Why is that?  What makes Nairn's greens so excellent and still the standard?  The weather?  Exceptional construction in the beginning? Different grass?

I'm guessing it's something to do with the weather (see any course in Pittsburgh as the U.S. analogy).

But, if I knew, I wouldn't have done this thread.

[Shane Wright]

Excellent question.  I would love to know the answer also.

I still contend that the day we played Nairn in 2001, the putting green was the smoothest and truest golf surface I have EVER putt on in my life. 

Every time our group takes a trip and runs into quality greens we always ask the question, "Were they as good as Nairn's practice green, September 2001."

Any insite would be awesome. 

[Shane Wright]

INSIGHT..sorry

[Bob_Huntley]

Excellent question.  I would love to know the answer also.

I still contend that the day we played Nairn in 2001, the putting green was the smoothest and truest golf surface I have EVER putt on in my life. 

Every time our group takes a trip and runs into quality greens we always ask the question, "Were they as good as Nairn's practice green, September 2001."

Any insite would be awesome. 

Shane,

Have you ever played Kilspindie?

Bob

[David_Tepper]

The area surrounding the Moray Firth is one of the sunniest in Scotland. I am sure that helps. 

It is also one of the driest places in Scotland:

http://www.metoffice.gov.uk/climate/uk/averages/19712000/rr/17.gif

[Shane Wright]

Bob - didn't play it the one time we were over there.  If you tell me the greens are better, and it is a links style course, then I will promise to include it the next time I'm there.

[jeffwarne]

funny,
I played at least 10-20 course in Scotland who had the "best greens in Scotland"
Ireland as well-"best greens in Ireland"

On a related note-we met a young lass who was declared
"the prettiest girl in the Irish countryside"....

She was German

[Kyle Henderson]

I can't wait to get a taste of Nairn at the end of May. But, I can't imagine the greens will roll more truly (or quickly) than at Sand Hills. Those were some silky smooth, bent grass pieces of paradise in that prairie.

[Rich Goodale]

I don't play Nairn often, but the last time I did (April 2005) I didn't think the greens were particularly good.  Maybe it takes them longer to come true than other links courses, but they were pretty average for links greens in the early spring, that year at least.

[Jon Wiggett]

Probably the best greens I have seen were at New Luffness' at Gullane.

[Brian_Ewen]

I was always told , it was the milder climate , caused by the gulfstream .

[Sean_A]

In this current era of distinctly mediocre greens in the GB&I, Nairn's greens are the best I have seen either side of the pond for a good many years.  Other clubs, such as Burnham and Hoylake that used to have great greens have fallen by the way side.  Nairn's pro wasn't much help in explaining why Nairn stood out, but I would be interested to know if the Green Keeper is doing something a bit different. 

Ciao

[Jon Wiggett]

Sean,

one of the reasons maybe that the climate in that area is very mild and very dry (for the UK). This of helps premote fescues and other fine bladed grasses. Obviously the greenkeeping lads there have found a good system for that course.

[Colin Sheehan]

As much as I love Nairn, and I've been fortunate to play it about 10-12 times over the years (and from months ranging from April, June, July, August, September, October and November) I think that course has been dining out on its reputation for way too long. The greens were fabulous in 1998 when I first played it. More recent years, 2004, 06, 07, they seem to dominated by bents that require heavy watering. I think they have become patchy and soft. My recent experience was you'll fix more ballmarks at Nairn (and Dornoch these past few years as well) than most other links in northern Scotland.

[jeffwarne]

Sean,
Do you think the greens in the UK are worse now than they used to be?

If so, is that due to the quest for speed?

I can't say I've noticed all that much difference,except in that more courses have faster greens (which I don't really care about)

When we played Ashburnham-what did you think of the condition those greens?
I thought they were perfect conditionwise (architecturally a bit bland)
Interestingly,despite a great putting round and great score, I'd only rate Ashburnham in the middle/bottom tier of my sampling of Wales courses.

Pennard had the worst conditioned greens of anywhere we played and I'd easily rate it the highest of my Wales sampling.
In fact we went back and played it again after we played Ashburnham with you (which I never do)
So it kind've shows how little condition plays in my evaluations.

[Niall C]

I've played Nairn twice, once in winter when the greens were pretty good for that time of year and once in the summer when they were excellent. I think a lot of it has to do with time of year, surprise surprise !

IMHO however the best all year round greens in Scotland are at Gullane. I played there over the Christmas period and the greens were the best I played on last year. Gullane is of course beside Luffness New which was also mentioned by Jon. Why are they so good ? My guess would be free draining soil and fully exposed conditions have got to be the main reason.

I would also make an honorary mention of the greens on the municipal courses at Troon which were consistently very good when I used to play there quite a bit a number of years ago. If you've done the full Open rota and looking for something of the beaten track, the Lochgreen and Darley courses are good fun, provided you don't mind your courses being a bit scruffy round the edges.

Niall

[Sean_A]

Sean,
Do you think the greens in the UK are worse now than they used to be?

If so, is that due to the quest for speed?

I can't say I've noticed all that much difference,except in that more courses have faster greens (which I don't really care about)

When we played Ashburnham-what did you think of the condition those greens?
I thought they were perfect conditionwise (architecturally a bit bland)
Interestingly,despite a great putting round and great score, I'd only rate Ashburnham in the middle/bottom tier of my sampling of Wales courses.

Pennard had the worst conditioned greens of anywhere we played and I'd easily rate it the highest of my Wales sampling.
In fact we went back and played it again after we played Ashburnham with you (which I never do)
So it kind've shows how little condition plays in my evaluations.

Jeff

I do think greens in GB&I have in general deteriorated especially this past decade.  I also think greens have slowed down.  Its true that some courses are in the middle of trying to recreate a situation where more traditional seaside grasses predominate on fairways and greens and that this transition will necessarily mean several years of less than ideal greens.  While I don't like the transition I accept it as a wise move for the future of maintenance budgets and year round quality of the greens.  This probably means that in high summer greens will not be as in good condition as the lush counterparts of previous years, but I think the tradeoff is a necessary evil.     

Ashburnham's greens were in good nick and I wouldn't complain about them.  Pennard's greens are chronically mediocre though they roll better than they look.  The club has been riding a knife edge this past year with no Head Green Keeper.  However, I don't notice any real difference so it was probably best to ditch the last guy.  For sure one positive of the current situation is that the club has had to get more involved the greens and possible solutions to increasing their quality given the nature of the land.  We shall see what the future holds, but like you suggest, I don't belong to Pennard for its maintenance practices.  In a way, part of the reason I belong is because the conditions are rustic and one just has to get on with the game.  For sure I wouldn't want to see my subs rise to cover the cost of better conditions so I don't complain.  Its a shame you saw Pennard when you did because it was in the worst condition I have ever seen it - the biggest problem being the newly created defined fairways.  Hopefully the cows will be back this summer and/or it gets hot enough to kill the rough back because I have always thought one of the great things about Pennard was the lack of definition.

I rarely take into conditions when I evaluate a course unless they are exceptional (either great or terrible) and to be honest this is very, very rare.   

Ciao

[jeffwarne]

Sean,
Good thoughts about Pennard.
I never care how greens look(see my recent positive thoughts on Sufarloaf), I just thought 6-10 footers were very dicey the days I played at Pennard. The course was quite busy so traffic could be a factor as well.
I loved the rustic look though, and hope that they are able to return to your undefined fairway look.
I've often thought a course with gradually defined fairways and rough areas was ideal and incredibly rare. Occasionally you might want to drive intentionally into a transitiony fairway becoming rough area for a preferred angle or shortcut-way too much definition out there and the courses that do this best have livestock determining a lot of the gras heights.

No superintendant is a scary thing long term-no?

[Sean_A]

Sean,
Good thoughts about Pennard.
I never care how greens look(see my recent positive thoughts on Sufarloaf), I just thought 6-10 footers were very dicey the days I played at Pennard. The course was quite busy so traffic could be a factor as well.
I loved the rustic look though, and hope that they are able to return to your undefined fairway look.
I've often thought a course with gradually defined fairways and rough areas was ideal and incredibly rare. Occasionally you might want to drive intentionally into a transitiony fairway becoming rough area for a preferred angle or shortcut-way too much definition out there and the courses that do this best have livestock determining a lot of the gras heights.

No superintendant is a scary thing long term-no?

Jeff

The club has no choice.  Employment law stipulates that if a person is made redundant (meaning the job isn't necessary anymore) then there is a waiting period before that position (if recreated) can be filled.

Ciao

[Adrian_Stiff]

Sean - I think you are wrong about greens being worse over the last decade in GB & I. I think cutting equipment has improved, most clubs top dress far frequently and are more tuned in to wholescale agronomic improvements in nutruition, fungal control, aeration etc. Also Greens are faster, we now cut much shorter, 10 years ago 4.5mm 3/16th inch was the norm in normal summer conditions, many clubs mow at 3mm even for general play. I will conceed that the last two summers have been very wet and not the best conditions for keeping the speed or firm turf.
Greens in the UK will never be good all the time, it is impossible due to our climate. Somewhere like Nairn will have times in the year where the grass will not be growing because it is too cold, that dormancy coupled with play will equal deterioration. The UK lies between 50 and 60 degrees North. To summarise Nairn may be the best greens sometimes, but never will they always be best and like many courses you may play green quality will change almost weekly.

[Brian_Ewen]

The last two summers ?

Try the last 8 to 10 !

[Adrian_Stiff]

Not in the South. 2006 was pretty bleached.

[Sean_A]

Sean - I think you are wrong about greens being worse over the last decade in GB & I. I think cutting equipment has improved, most clubs top dress far frequently and are more tuned in to wholescale agronomic improvements in nutruition, fungal control, aeration etc. Also Greens are faster, we now cut much shorter, 10 years ago 4.5mm 3/16th inch was the norm in normal summer conditions, many clubs mow at 3mm even for general play. I will conceed that the last two summers have been very wet and not the best conditions for keeping the speed or firm turf.
Greens in the UK will never be good all the time, it is impossible due to our climate. Somewhere like Nairn will have times in the year where the grass will not be growing because it is too cold, that dormancy coupled with play will equal deterioration. The UK lies between 50 and 60 degrees North. To summarise Nairn may be the best greens sometimes, but never will they always be best and like many courses you may play green quality will change almost weekly.

Adrian

Of course it is your right to disagree.  However, I play an awful lot of different clubs (including in comps) throughout GB&I all year long.  In my experience, the quality of greens has deteriorated and I don't think its even close.  They are bumpier and slower (in general) compared with say 15 years ago.  Furthermore, I think the deterioration will continue in the coming years due to what I think will be a reduction in maintenance budgets.

Ciao

[Adrian_Stiff]

Sean- You may be right about the future. Do you think you may be looking at old fashioned greens and merely comparing them to modern USGA types?
The greens on the courses I have been involved with since 1993 have all been modern constructions to 3 layer USGA type spec. The surfaces have been invaded by Poa but they still remain good. The more recent greens are purer and tchnically better, pro's from the various tours say they are equal to what the play on week in week out.
The older style greens in my area seem to have gotten better, Burnham late last summer was certainly good and I have been playing there since 1975 and remember the Jock Millar days. In all honesty other than Burnham pre 76 and St Pierre pre 78 and perhaps a few newer courses which had pure stands for a while I don't remember great greens. Video evidence from PGA tournaments pre 85 would back this up too, very few UK greens stimped double figures pre 80, when I was a greenkeeper and first did mine in 87 they were mid eights!!! It was rare to go below 4.5 mm and when we did it was for like 5 days and then the plant went into chaos. Some older golfers 50+ still tap the ball with a putter, todays putting is very different. We all verti cut more, topdress more, blades are sharper, have more cuts per inch.. I don't see how things have gotten worse other than the last 2 years where there has been a softness to the plant growth and to the soil profile/ turf due to the very abnormal summers, even then the quality is good first thing and deteriorating only under heavy play.

[Rich Goodale]

Adrian

I think you have it right regarding the past 2-3 years, which have been (hopefully) an anomaly, weather-wise.  No course in the UK or Ireland which I played over this period was as good as it was in the 5-10 years previous, but I do not blame committees or greenkeeprers, just Morther Nature.

Which means, of course that I strongly disagree with you, Sean regarding the past 10-15 years, which I think, overall, have shown tremendous progress in greenkeeping knowledge and practice.  I'm not sure how long you have played over here, but I'm in my 31st year of playing the great and not so great in GB I, and I can guarantee you that Adrian is right about the relatively poor standard of green conditioning in the late 70's an just about all of the 80's.

To get back on topic, the first time I heard of the legendary Nairn greens was in the mid-80's, from some friends who had been competing in the Scottish Amateur when it was played there at that time.  I had played Nairn some years earlier and hadn't thought much of it, so was surprised.  In retrospect, I also remember that Dornoch, for example, was as poor as I have ever seen in at that time, which unfortunatley coincided with their holding the British Amateur in 1985.  Maybe Nairn just happened to get it right at a particularly appropriate time and when most other courses were relatively poor, and has been at least partically living on its reputation ever since.

I might be playing Nairn in May, and if I do will report back as to what I find.

Rich

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