Saunton East vs Porthcawl

[Ran Morrissett]

My brother just got back from an impressive tour of southwest England/Wales, which included Saunton East and Porthcawl.

The two links pair up in the sense that they are both 'big' and important contests are frequently held at each. Blind shots aren't a primary feature as both are relatively frank in that what you see is what you get - the quirky bounces that one expects to receive at Pennard or St. Enodoc are absent in general.

My question is which do you prefer and why? My personal list shows a pretty big gap of 40 or so courses between the two with the advantage going to Porthcawl.

But in thinking about it, I see the attributes of the two as much closer than that - both are rock solid with few weaknesses. Unlike Saunton, the Atlantic and crashing waves dominate the views at Porthcawl but otherwise, how would you distinguish the merits of each?  

Porthcawl's first four holes are a great start but conversely, Saunton's finishing four are better/more varied. Both have some very good one shotters and the three shotters aren't why either course is famous (though 5 at Porthcawl gets nervy with o.b. hard left).

Though not nearly as cunning, I can't help but think that each links would match up pretty well with Maidstone on a hole for hole basis, though neither of these appears in GOLF's current world top 100.

Cheers,

[Paul_Turner]

Ran

So what did John think?  He must have played Pennard.

I prefer Porthcawl (but not by a big margin), I think mainly because of the movement on the terrain compared with the relatively flat fairways at Saunton.  Like you state, no real humpy, bumpy fairways but you do find quite a variety of stances on the course (approach to 9 being an example).  

Both courses have quite sophisticated greens.  And these are probably Saunton's strongest suit.

I think Porthcawl has a few more exhilarating shots and has better and more interesting (severe!) bunkers.  Although perhaps the approach to 14 at Saunton is the hardest shot in the 36?

Finally, Porthcawl is just about the most exposed links in Britain.  No shelter anywhere so it plays harder than Saunton (eventhough it's not long) which has some shelter to the North and West.

PS

Aren't 1,3,13 excellent holes on Saunton West!

[Ran Morrissett]

Paul,

In short, I think John would give Porthcawl, St. Enodoc, Pennard, Westward Ho! and Saunton East all an 'A', which is Morrissett parlance for an 8 on the Doak scale.

St. Enodoc was probably his favorite course as start to finish it's so much fun. He noted that the 14th green complex was tons better than I remember. The rest of the holes are so good, so what if 12 and 13 are only OK? I still maintain that St. Enodoc isn't terribly strategic, especially relative to the options present at Westward Ho! but my younger brother stopped listening to me a long time ago  :-/

John was surprised how relatively solid Pennard was; he liked the 17th more than 16th. 7 is all world. John hit a sand wedge into 16   but thanks to the hole location couldn't get closer than 30 feet  

The first round at Westward Ho! left him wondering as to the merits of the course; his 2nd round revealed much more of the strategic nature of the holes (i.e. bombing way right on 3 to access a left hole location, finding the spot in the 15th fairway to gain access down the length of the green, etc.) Everyone loved the 13th green and what can be said about the 13th tee area  

The back nine at Saunton East might be his favorite nine of the trip. They all hit little wedges into the middle of the 10th green but downwind, the balls finished 20 plus yards over the knob green. He loved 14 in particular, as you note, and the 9th green complex as well.

Cheers,

[Dave Q]

I also recently returned from South Wales and Devon, and while I was unable to play Porthcawl, I can say that my day spent at Saunton was wonderful.  

Saunton:  We played the West in the AM, and the East in the PM.  Both courses are terrific, and the West (which is a bit easier and maybe more fun) is a good warmup for the East.  I think Saunton appeals to me as much for its striking, secluded setting (36 holes of links sandwiched between giant dunes on one side and beautiful country hills on the other side), and the extremely friendly and relaxed atmosphere of the place as it does for the golf holes.

We also played:

Pennard: The most visually spectacular and fun course I've played - nothing more to add to the existing "literature" on this great place...

Tenby:  Classic links golf holes from 3-14, but a somewhat disappointing finish.  All in all, though, a very fun round of golf at a very relaxed club.  Conditioning much better than suggested in Doak's Guide, but setting/dunes not quite as wild as advertised, either.  

Ashburnham:  Went looking for links and found the front nine to be a rain-soaked parkland course.  The back nine got into the linksland a bit and was a tremendous improvement over the front.  Holes 9-14 are pretty good stuff.  Overall, a disappointment.

Westward Ho:  Ditto all of the previous comments in the thread.  Also be sure to allow time to take in the impressive "golf museum" in the Royal North Devon club house.

Burnham & Berrow:  I've seen a few posts on this site suggesting that this course is not on par with some of the others in the area, but I would put it right up there.  It is set in magnificent dunes, has several great strategic holes, has interesting green complexes that reminded me of Dornoch, was supremely well conditioned (best greens of the courses we played), and has a few personality changes that provide some interest to the layout.  Only minus could be the somewhat stuffy clubhouse / membership.  

Should have a few pics of all the above courses if anyone is interested in viewing them.      
  
  

[RT (Guest)]

Dave Q,

Glad you chimed in with Burnham & Berrow. I too concur there are many great greens complexes out there and Martin Hawtree has done a wonderful job with the sixth hole to strengthen it, a particularly the greens complex.  He's also tweeked a few other greens on their edges to create some more interesting forms.  Its a course where several of the European Tour pros go to sharpen up their skills and because of the popularity of the course vis-a-vis their presence they are demanded to play with the members.  The greens have improved immensley in 2 years thanks to one of the best agronomists giving sound advice and more importantly being heeded by the new head greenskeeper since 2 years. And best of all is the multiple personality changes you encounter out there, sort of in the near vein as the character changes one notices at Cypress Point.  It's like a good piece of Pat Metheny Group music.

[Andy Levett]

I haven't had the chance to play Porthcawl but am interested in opinions of Saunton East v West. I played the West last summer (couldn't get on the East as it was hosting the English Amateur final) and  enjoyed it immensely despite dismal weather  and diabolical play on my part. I felt the course compared well with other links I have played in that it combined the fairness of (eg Carnoustie) with the character of (eg Silloth). I played the West with members (hcps 6 and 15) who claimed they and most members preferred the West as it was fairer and not TOO tough in typical conditions.

[Robert_Walker]

Porthcawl has a weaker finish than Saunton East. The 18th at Porthcawl is a little bit strange. It would be a better hole in the middle of the course, not at the finish.

Saunton West IS fairer than the East, but the East is more interesting.

The building complex at Saunton is more appealing than Porthcawl. Porthcawl is a bit cobbled together, and Saunton's clubhouse architecture is more cohesive.

[Dan_Robson]

Robert,

What is wrong with Porthcawl's 18th as a finishing hole?

[Paul_Turner]

I see Porthcawl's 18th as one of the best final holes in golf!  Certainly one of the best links finishers.

The "pit" in the fairway is fun and the triple level, fall away green is wonderful.

[Dave Q]

One more point on Saunton East finishing hole:

For those you haven't been there recently...the drive has been made a bit more challenging by the addition of four new traps on left side of fairway (there used to be just one).  Makes for a slightly claustrophobic drive between the large sand hill on the right and traps on left...

[John Morrissett]

I agree about the nod going to Porthcawl over Saunton (East) for many of the reasons given -- more interesting terrain and site.  However, it is close.

While I really liked much of Porthcawl, the finish is a bet of a let down.  The 15th and 16th are annoying holes where you have to lay up short of the cross bunkers off the tee (even though they do run in opposite directions).  After the lay-up off the tee, the approaches aren't anything great.  After the tee shot, the 17th is not much of a hole.

The reason the 18th was a bit of disappointment was that we caught the course in a wind that I presume is unusual (essentially from the north, so that the 18th is downwind).  Under those conditions, the 18th was just a 3-iron to the very edge of the gulley (probably should have been a 4-iron!) and then a "chip" with a PW where you are not trying to carry the ball but 50 yards or so before letting it race down onto the green (and it is amazing how close you have to come to bouncing the ball into the left bunker to do so).  That chip/pitch is one of very, very few shots I have seen elsewhere that remind me of the Morrissetts' beloved Plantation Course at Kapalua, as you feel it is impossible to leave the ball short of the hole.  With a "normal" wind, how does the 18th play?

I think Robert might have just thought that having forced lay ups on the last three two-shotters was a bit much.

Saunton (East), on the other hand, storms into the clubhouse.  I loved holes 5, 9 (in a battle with the 7th at Pennard for the coolest green of the trip), 10, 11, 13, 14, and 16 (and the rest are pretty darn good).  It wasn't until our 35th of the day at Saunton that we realized we had not seen the water all day -- a surprising fact.  The property isn't anything special, and the greens go a long way to "making" the course.  As with the upper holes at Porthcawl, at Saunton you sometimes have the feeling you are playing over farmland more so than linksland.

[Paul_Turner]

John

I agree with the 17th.  And to a certain degree, the tee shots at 15 and 16.  Although you must hit a long way to lay up at the 16th into a head wind! I think it's a natural lay up anyway even without the bunkers, because of the steep bank.
I found the approach shots appealing on both holes; particularly to the 15th which is well contoured.

I played the 18th in the same wind as you so I'm not sure about the hole with a prevailing south westerly.

The new bunkers at Saunton's 18th looked out of place to me.  That fairway cluster was nothing like any others on the course.   The new greenside shaping at both the 17th and 18th looked rather smooth too.

[Dan_Robson]

John & Robert,

It sounds like you were a bit unlucky with the wind direction and possibly some of the tee positions (you were playing forward tees?).

 As you guessed, the 18th is pretty much straight into the prevailing wind. Porthcawl is so exposed that it is difficult to talk about "normal" conditions, but I would expect to be hitting a drive and a mid-iron into 18 far more regularly than 3-iron, wedge. I have played the hole driver, 3-wood on more than one occasion. I don’t recall what the conditions were like, but when the Walker Cup was staged there, Woods hit 7-iron for his second shot to 18 (and famously hit the clubhouse ).

On the subject of the other "lay-ups", in over 20 rounds I have only had to lay-up once on the 15th. This hole is normally slightly into the wind, and from the furthest back tee it is 320 yards to the cross bunkers. In my experience, the most common way for these bunkers to come into play is as a hazard for the second shot after you have missed the fairway. From level with the bunkers on the right, as you are likely to be with the hole playing into the wind, it can be a great long-iron (or even wood) second shot to the green. The 16th does normally play as a lay-up however, especially since it tends to be downwind. I don’t think that this is necessarily a bad thing though. The potential for a long second shot after an over-conservative drive makes for an interesting decision on the tee.

I think that 17 again suffers with the non-prevailing wind direction. With the prevailing wind down and slightly right to left, this hole is about daring to aim far enough right off the tee, and then the decision as to whether to take on the second shot over/around the front left greenside bunkers or play short right for as easier chip up the hill. Into the wind I can see it turning into a bit of a flat slog however...

Perhaps the main criticism of these holes should be that they do not play equally well in all winds?

[Paul_Turner]

Dan

That's right, now I remember the blue tee on the 15th; it's way back, making the hole about 470yds.

I wonder if John could have carried the pit/gulley at the 18th with a driver downwind .

[Ran Morrissett]

Porthcawl has a traditional card of 10 par fours, 4 par threes, and 4 par fives.

I say that because when you play Saunton East, it seems to lack the same variety. With 3 par threes and 2 par fives (and both of those are sub 490 yards), like Ganton, Saunton East misses out in the variety sweepstakes (despite St. Andrews hobbling along O.K. with 14 par fours  ).

Obviously, I'm sure that the routing that Fowler selected yielded the best set of holes but the par threes that Saunton has are so good, I just wish there was another one or two thrown into the mix somewhere, somehow. Plus, a nice three shotter would add variety to its overall challenge.

Variety of challenge - from the tiny one shot 16th to the three shot 17th to the sea rushes to the sheep to the humpy bumpy terrain to the burn -  makes Westward Ho! such a great favorite.

Cheers,

PS Any guess as to how many acres Saunton East occupies? It isn't but so large, is it?

[Paul_Turner]

Ran

Not sure about the total acreage.  I wonder if the spectacular land to the west was ever available for golf?  Some of it looks maybe too severe/dramatic for early building methods (probably one of the reasons that the original Ballybunion didn't use any of the huge dunes used for the New course).  But I recently had a look at an aerial and there's enough dune land for about 5 courses.

Ran/John

Was it the wall by St Enodoc's 14th green that appealed?  I remember the green having some tilt too.  That fairway is quite a challenge to hold in the summer!

The 13th is the dud hole there.  I don't mind the 12th; it's short but a few humps and hollows and quite an interesting green.  The view and the stream make the 11th more interesting which I suspect is a much better hole from the far back tee by the church?

[John Morrissett]

Dan--

Thanks for the comments; I'm glad to know we did catch Porthcawl with a bit of a strange wind. (However, the 10th played GREAT downwind.  In our two rounds there, we couldn't quite drive the green, but 4 was still a darn good score, with the narrow, angled green.  Also, the 13th was intriguing downwind.  After a 3W to the top of the hill, you had just the shortest of pitches downhill and downwind, but with the hole toward the front and that bunker about 50 yards short of the green (EXACTLY where you wanted to land your pitch) it was maddening trying to get the ball within 30 feet of the hole.)

Even though they were protecting the course for next week's British Amateur, we still played from what looked to be the standard medal tees (something like 6400 yards).  While I know the 15th can be stretched far enough to allow anyone to bang away with a driver and appreciate that it is intriguing to have a hole with a cross hazard that cannot be carried from the tee (to test your nerve to see how close you will drive to that hazard, e.g., the 16th at Troon), having those two holes back-to-back was not that desirable to me.

I'm glad to hear the 18th plays much different.  It is a neat prospect from the tee, with the "horizon fairway" (Tom Paul would love it!).  With the wind helping, we didn't realize the first time how far left you need to go off that tee.  As a drive and a mid-iron, it would rank right up there with (and possibly ahead of) St. Enodoc and Lundin as my favorite 18th in GB&I (other than the Old Course).

The 14th at St. Enodoc was one of the neatest holes of the trip.  As Paul writes, the tee shot grabs your attention -- because of the terrific views in every direction, the sharp drop-off to the 10th fairway to the right, and the prospect of finding the sloping fairway.  The wall to the right of the green that is almost part of the green is unique (it and the "wall" on the 3rd might be the best walls in golf!), but the green complex itself is very interesting, with the berm in front of the green and the left to right tilt of the green itself.  With the front hole location, we found the strategy to be to risk hitting driver so that you could just bumble a chip over that berm with just enough steam to roll down the other side and near the hole.  I thought the 14th was the most important hole on the course, as it really "saves" the inward nine at a crucial stage.

The 11th has a little more to it than meets the eye (or so I tried to convince my comrades).  The stream (that is out of bounds) is not terribly far off the left side of the green.  For us the hole was on the right side, a difficult spot with a right-to-left wind.  The 12th is hardly a throw-away, with the great views from the back tee, the prospect of cutting the corner from the tee, and one of the more interesting green complexes on the course (we had some fun recovery shots around that green).  I can't write off the 13th completely, as the left-to-right slope of the green requires some thought with the approach.

[Paul_Turner]

John

Thanks for the description of the 14th green at St Enodoc, it has jogged my memory.  Do you think that hole plays somewhat similarly to the 12th at Pennard?  I remember hitting a driver to the far left edge of fairway and then bumbling a chip over the ridge onto the green to a front pin position.

What did you make of the 10th?  Is that huge mound too close to the tee?  I think some people find it the lay up annoying because the resulting approach shot is so demanding.  I don't think many people could carry that mound.  Still it's a unique hole!

[John Morrissett]

Paul--

I didn't think of comparing 14 at St. Enodoc to 12 at Pennard, partly because we caught the latter in (another) unusual wind (helping).

The 12th at Pennard was the damnedest hole.  With the wind helping, I hit 3W the first round and wound up beyond the 13th tee (between the 13th tee and the 13th green).  The next time, I hit a 4W well left of the green, only to find it on the 13th tee!  (I know it landed on top of the ridge to the left and rolled all the way across the green and down the hill. ) So, even though each tee shot at one point touched the green, I still scored 6 and 5.

I think you are right that to find the 12th green you need to land the ball not just left of the green but actually on top of that shelf and let the ball just trickle down the slope onto the green.

David Staebler summed up the 10th at St. Enodoc well: "A par 4 where you can't hit the green in two."  His point is a good one -- if it were labeled as a par 5, I'm sure people would be much more accepting of it.  Unless you can find that 10-yard wide strip of fairway, I think you want to hit it no more than about 230, leaving you about 220 to the green.  It would be very interesting to see how the better members play the hole.  I imagine you start out hitting driver and making sure if you miss it it is to the right (so you would then lay up and play it as a three-shotter); get tired of hacking out of the rough on a steep sidehill lie; start to hit 3W off the tee to leave yourself with another 3W to the green; realize you are better off not being tempted to go for the green in two (what an intimidating shot, with no good at all to be found to the left); and then just play a 4W or 3-iron off the tee, followed by the same club to the right, figuring you would make four 5s and one 4 that way in five chances -- not a bad result!  

Like the 5th at Inniscrone, there is almost something appealing in the perceived "unfairness" of the hole.  Any hole where you are so uncertain how to play it has something going for it, in my eyes.

[Thomas_Brown]

Although I haven't played Saunton, Porthcawl is a course I particularly like.
Although I agree w/ the comments concerning the last 4 holes, the greens have enough idiosyncracy to emphasize shotmaking.

#4 the par 3 is my favorite hole w/ the par 4 10th as my second choice.

[Keith Durrant]

Re. Saunton: originally Fowler with reconstruction in 1951 by CK Cotton.

Pennink calls the courses the "old" and the "new". Pennink himself helped design the "new" along with the club secretary, Goodban.

Re. the Old, he notes that "only its remoteness precludes a regular spot on championship rotas."

Apparently some significant changes to the opening and closing holes of the Old were made. Anyone have more details?

[Jeff_Mingay]

Off the top of my head, I recall Fowler's original design at Saunton was highly regard. You don't hear much about the course these days though. So perhaps, yes, significant changes have occurred over the intervening years.

I'd like to know about the course's evolution, too.