Cabo Update- The Dunes Course

[Bart Bradley]

Paul:

Excellent answer...thank you.

I agree that the playing environment will certainly be a plus ....I just returned from a trip to South Africa where, while playing Humewood (a true links) in 30mph winds, I was enjoying the 80 degree temperature...It had crossed my mind that there were not many courses where the year-round temperature was comfortable that provide a true links experience.

You must be very excited about this course...can you share your feelings about the current delay.  It must be very difficult.  How many holes are grassed?

Bart

[astavrides]

Love Golf Design is the designer of The Dunes Course.  Love Golf Design consists of Davis Love III, his brother Mark Love, Bob Spence and Paul Cowley.  Bob has not been involved with the Cabo project, the design team there is Davis, Mark, and Paul- with Paul being the designer on site.   

Thanks.  I know there have been some threads about it, but some days i just can't wait thru the GCA search function.  today is one of those days.  public or private (like querencia)?

[paul cowley]

Bart.....I know Davis and Mark are both disappointed with the delay, because it really is an exceptional site that they have put much time and effort into.
Me....I'm in a state of Cabo withdrawal. I had made 20 trips last year alone by Sept when the plug was pulled because the lender failed.

We were 24 months into construction, twice as long as it should have taken......primarily because of the slowness and lack of equipment and personnel that was being supplied by the General Contractor.

This WHOLE course was formed by a single shaper, Kevin Lippert, a Canadian [which I don't hold against him...much], using only a D5 or 6 bulldozer at different times........we never used [or where able to use] an excavator, off road truck, back hoe, loader, tractor....you get the picture, and I think its remarkable what we were able to do given the limitations.

We were all grassed when things stopped. We were just at the point when the promised track hoe was to arrive so we could begin edge treatment and bunker detailing. We over grassed so we could tear things up a bit at the end.....something I can not wait to do. It will really make it complete and a major difference from what many of the holes look like now.

The photos john selected are some of the ones that need the least finish work.

Anyway......I understand I might be going back again mid March in advance of a start up, and I'm ready.
  

[PCCraig]

Looks awesome.

The 11th is probably my personal favorite of the bunch, but all look great.

The course looks ready to play to me!

[J_McKenzie]

Paul,

Hope this doesn't make your Cabo withdrawal any more difficult than it's already been, but I thought I would post a few field shots taken during construction:

The Cabo design team, from left to right- Davis, Mark and Paul


Davis and Mark discussing the back edge of the 'infinity green' at #11, don't miss long...


Davis and Paul discussing the treatment of left side of #11 green

[Eric Smith]

Beautiful.

Really awesome looking golf course.  The beer has to taste better there as well, (80° +).

Thanks for the back stage pass!

[Greg Tallman]

Bart.....I know Davis and Mark are both disappointed with the delay, because it really is an exceptional site that they have put much time and effort into.
Me....I'm in a state of Cabo withdrawal. I had made 20 trips last year alone by Sept when the plug was pulled because the lender failed.

We were 24 months into construction, twice as long as it should have taken......primarily because of the slowness and lack of equipment and personnel that was being supplied by the General Contractor.

This WHOLE course was formed by a single shaper, Kevin Lippert, a Canadian [which I don't hold against him...much], using only a D5 or 6 bulldozer at different times........we never used [or where able to use] an excavator, off road truck, back hoe, loader, tractor....you get the picture, and I think its remarkable what we were able to do given the limitations.

We were all grassed when things stopped. We were just at the point when the promised track hoe was to arrive so we could begin edge treatment and bunker detailing. We over grassed so we could tear things up a bit at the end.....something I can not wait to do. It will really make it complete and a major difference from what many of the holes look like now.

The photos john selected are some of the ones that need the least finish work.

Anyway......I understand I might be going back again mid March in advance of a start up, and I'm ready.
  

Paul, Please check your messages regarding this post.

[Greg Tallman]

A few more photos from Larry's recent tour of Cabo

DESERT COURSE #10


DESERT COURSE AT CABO DEL SOL #16


DESERT COURSE #17


DESERT COURSE #18

[Rob Rigg]

Greg,

Is walking an option or are the green to tee transfers too long?

There is just too much to see and appreciate for it to be cart paths only - IMO.

Thanks, Rob

[Greg Tallman]

Greg,

Is walking an option or are the green to tee transfers too long?

There is just too much to see and appreciate for it to be cart paths only - IMO.

Thanks, Rob

Rob, If you are speaking of Diamante I know they enviosion a walking program (caddies and the sort)... that said the walk from 9 to 10 presents the only major issue... is it a northeastern private club layout? No. Could you wlak it without consistently lamenting the green to tee treks? Sure. Beyond 9 to 10 I see only 1 or 2 others that are much of an issue at all... some up and down for sure (I believe the primary dune is about 150 feet high) but not a deal breaker.

[Greg Tallman]

And yet a few more Larry Lambrecht photos from Cabo...

Ocean Course at Cabo del Sol #6


Ocean Course #16 at sunrise


Ocean Course #16 & #17 green


Ocean Course #18

[Ed Oden]

John, the pictures are absolutely stunning.  The second hole looks like the battleground for an evolutionary struggle between grass and sand.  Do winds constantly shifting the front lines?  It will be interesting to see how that hole looks in a few years.  I hope the project gets back on track soon.

Ed

Ed....you're right that it will be interesting to see where the grass limits are in a few years.

We have this situation on many holes....one where we didn't want to create or maintain an hard edge to the grassed areas....and we resisted doing this for two reasons.

One was aesthetic, as we wanted a truer links look in appearance and playability.....even though we were in the desert and in an environment far removed from traditional links settings.
We definitely didn't want the course to resemble the more hard edged courses of the South West....not that there is anything wrong with them.

The other was more practical.....we didn't want to fight mother nature.
This can be a very wind swept environment, and whenever you put anything up in the air sand will accrete behind it, causing a build up that can be beneficial or detrimental.
The grassed area on the back of #2 is part of a huge blowout and aerodynamically we just left it alone and grassed the existing contours, with the hope that they will stay put......and so far they have.

We also decided to let the Paspalum grass run out of the irrigated areas as far as it could live......essentially letting drought conditions maintain the grass limits.
I know this might seem cruel to some that we let the grass suffer intentionally at the edges, but 'drought' is a whole lot cheaper than having to pay for hand labor...........and we can be insensitive SOB's.
Its a hard world out there. 

Paul, that is really cool.  While I understand that you didn't want to fight mother nature, was your design influenced by what you think she will do over time?  Or are her ways so unpredictable that you don't even try? 

I love the use of old photos of Cypress as inspiration.  Was CPC's shift away from this wild state in part an attempt to control the effects of mother nature?  If so, are you worried that the same thing may occur at the Dunes?

As you know, I am a big fan of Love Design's work at Irish Creek.  It looks like you may have an even bigger winner at the Dunes.

Ed 

[paul cowley]

Thanks Ed

We have tried to be very cognisant about mother natures effects on the site, and as it can be really raw at times we tryed to create green sites and land forms that will allow for a considerable amount of beneficial 'morphing' to occur.
We know its going to happen......when the wind gets above 25 mph, much of the course gets topped dressed and its going to be very interesting to go back 10 yrs from now and see the changes.

The sand was so good we didn't need any greens drainage, we just graded, added irrigation and grassed. We are really not committed to a specific green shape or size.

We also are just using one type of Paspalum throughout. This allows us to make as many changes to the greens, fairways and rough as we want. All we have to do is adjust the mowing heights. Believe me this is major.

Although we only have cart paths between the greens and following tees [carts would get stuck in the sand], we decided to use RR ties as they can be easily changed over time as the wind and blowing sand patterns dictate. Trying to relate to a fixed surface such as concrete would be a fighting a losing battle.

This is a tough and wild site, but I feel we have made good design decisions that will allow for a great degree of change and flexibility.

[Sean Leary]

And yet a few more Larry Lambrecht photos from Cabo...

Ocean Course at Cabo del Sol #6


Ocean Course #16 at sunrise


Ocean Course #16 & #17 green


Ocean Course #18

Greg,

Did the 16th green get moved back, closer to the water?

[George Freeman]

Wow.

Hard to put my reactions to those pics into words...It looks absolutely fantastic!

Thanks for posting and I really hope this project gets back on track.

[Peter Pallotta]

"This is a tough and wild site, but I feel we have made good design decisions that will allow for a great degree of change and flexibility."

Paul - I'm probably reading more than you intended into that line, but I think it a most interesting remark.  The approach it describes seems to me both pragmatic and purist, both modern and old school.  To accept (in fact, to welcome) change and the inevitability of change but to try to design a course such that throughout the changes an ideal is maintained -- a wonderful approach, and one that neither the stale working professional nor the ambitious up-and-comer would try, I don't think.  And I don't think the ODGs would (or ever did) describe their decisions or their processes in the way you just did, and yet some of the best of them worked on their favourite courses for years, making changes throughout while keeping the essential character of those courses in tact.  I'm not explaining myself very well.  That's just a very cool remark.

Peter 

[paul cowley]

"This is a tough and wild site, but I feel we have made good design decisions that will allow for a great degree of change and flexibility."

Paul - I'm probably reading more than you intended into that line, but I think it a most interesting remark.  The approach it describes seems to me both pragmatic and purist, both modern and old school.  To accept (in fact, to welcome) change and the inevitability of change but to try to design a course such that throughout the changes an ideal is maintained -- a wonderful approach, and one that neither the stale working professional nor the ambitious up-and-comer would try, I don't think.  And I don't think the ODGs would (or ever did) describe their decisions or their processes in the way you just did, and yet some of the best of them worked on their favourite courses for years, making changes throughout while keeping the essential character of those courses in tact.  I'm not explaining myself very well.  That's just a very cool remark.

Peter 

Peter....please ghost write my three page biography....you could turn it into a novelette that someone might actually want to read!

I appreciate your comments.
At my core I am very efficient and practical designer....I try to determine the simplest essence and functions first, then add the frills and extras as needed.
Many a Mr Potato Head design has been created when a designer tries it the other way around.

One of these core tenants is that I understand the inevitability of change in anything connected with mother nature [human too!], and I embrace it.
I get a very nervous feeling in the pit of my stomach when I realize that I might have missed something that wasn't in line with mother natures intent and I change whenever I can.
 A blueprint really is out there once you have the experience and take the time to read it.

Sometimes that change is hard to see, and other times [this site in particular], it is quite apperant.

 

[paul cowley]

Ran was kind enough to introduce the Dunes Course at Diamante Cabo San Lucas to the discussion group several months ago, so I thought I would follow up with a few updated images of the course taken by Larry Lambrecht a couple of weeks ago.  Unfortunately, the project has been on hold now for a few months due to issues with the original lender, but we are hoping that work will resume soon so that final course construction and detailing can be finished properly.

Hole #2, par-3


Hole #4, short risk/reward par-4


Hole #11, par-3


Another view of the 11th taken during the late afternoon 


#15 green, par-4 playing out of the dunes and onto the beach


Hole #16, par-3 on the beach


Hole #18, a long dogleg left par-4 finisher

Just thought I'd bump the pictures of the Dunes course back up......as much as I love Larrys's pictures and the course at Cabo Del Sol!

GregT....will you send me your phone # please?....thanks man.

[Tim Nugent]

Paul, very, very, very nice.  In hindsight, not having a lot of equipment on-site probably saved much of natural areas from disruption.  I especially love the little native mounds used as hazards in front of some greens.  Something I have always wanted to do but didn't have the guts.

How's the Green energy business going?  Couldn't help but think of all the applications at a sight like this - solar, wind.

[George Pazin]

Thanks for sharing, I couldn't be happier for the good folks at LGD, especially Paul, for all of his contributions on here.

That Larry Lambrecht fellow should be a professional photographer.

[Greg Tallman]

And yet a few more Larry Lambrecht photos from Cabo...


Ocean Course #16 at sunrise


Ocean Course #16 & #17 green

Greg,

Did the 16th green get moved back, closer to the water?

Sean,

Yes, If you look at the photo shot across 16 green toward 17 green you see the flatish area fronting 16 green beyond the bunker some 30 yars short of the green... this is the site of the previous green. We made the changes during the summe rof 2004 as we were reconstructing all putting surfaces and introducing new grasses.

The green has actually been moved twice now... Prior to our arrival in 2003 the green was moved to the location as explained above from its original site which was roughly in the middle of the currrent and second iteration, that is the front to the green would have overlapped the back of the second  version and the back of the green overlapping the current front with a huge bunker behind the green where the back of the current green sits on the rocks above the beach.

The rationale behind the first change was another tee for #17 which was created pretty much where the back of the green is now (the black tee for 17 sits behind and right of the current green. We rarely used the tee and through conversations with Jim Lipe of Nicklaus arrived at our preferred location after he offered the following comment  during a site visit... "In a perfect world the green would be 'over there'"

A couple of field drawings later we were off to the races... and Jim was off to explain to Jack what the heck just happened.

The new site creates one of the most challenging approaches on the course now whereas the previous hole was relatively easy.

[henrye]

Greg.  It looks like #6 green is unchanged.  I thought you/they were going to move it further out into the ocean somehow?  At least I think that's what I remember someone involved with the project mentioning on here?

[Greg Tallman]

Greg.  It looks like #6 green is unchanged.  I thought you/they were going to move it further out into the ocean somehow?  At least I think that's what I remember someone involved with the project mentioning on here?

Henry, Yes the changes are still planned. We will go after the first of the changes which are those that require special permitting from the government due to their proximity to the ocean and "federal land". That will happen this summer. That was the original holdup, getting the permits to do what we wanted. Beyond that I cannot comment as to timelines for the project.

Both 6 and 7 the back to back par 3s will change dramatically. 

[Pat Burke]

Are those his legs, or is Davis riding a chicken?
 

[Brad Fleischer]

I have been to cabo many times but this place looks stunning. Real links type golf with cabo weather, man that's hard to beat. Hope this project get's done as I would love to see the finished product. I like golf in cabo  but I loved it 5 years ago. Prices had gotten out of control when I was there last may and I stopped bringing the clubs and started to like fishing. One look at this site though and I know I would bring out the clubs again. I'm sure the economic downturn has not helped this project . I looked at the website and prices are steep (to me). However here's hoping it gets done. It's to much of a killer site not to get completed.

Brad

ps

Great pics!!!