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Joe Hancock

  • Karma: +0/-0
Re: 5, 8, 5
« Reply #25 on: February 27, 2009, 07:59:13 AM »
You are being aukward these days, aren't you Mark?
Just a cantankerous phase.  Probably need to play some golf.

Dear Canker Face,

Go play some gawf.

Your Friend,

Joe

 ;D
" What the hell is the point of architecture and excellence in design if a "clever" set up trumps it all?" Peter Pallotta, June 21, 2016

"People aren't picking a side of the fairway off a tee because of a randomly internally contoured green ."  jeffwarne, February 24, 2017

PCCraig

  • Karma: +0/-0
Re: 5, 8, 5
« Reply #26 on: February 27, 2009, 08:31:13 AM »
I think it sounds pretty cool. I think three par-3's would work best if one of the three was a "half par" hole of 250+ and another around 100 yards.
H.P.S.

Kalen Braley

  • Karma: +0/-0
Re: 5, 8, 5
« Reply #27 on: February 27, 2009, 09:18:44 AM »
I think it sounds pretty cool. I think three par-3's would work best if one of the three was a "half par" hole of 250+ and another around 100 yards.

I was kinda hoping they would all be in that 150-170 range so you have 3 chances at getting it right?  ;D  ;)

Like Rich, when I first saw the title I was thinking "damn a Par 8 hole...now that would be something."

Bill_McBride

  • Karma: +0/-0
Re: 5, 8, 5
« Reply #28 on: February 27, 2009, 09:30:38 AM »


Forrest - are you able to share the yardages?

It would be interesting to know more of your wife's thinking, I figure she may well be thinking 'par 3 = manageable' (given that you mentioned she doesn't usually comment). How did you settle on breaking down the yardages for the average male and lady golfer? Thx.

Cheers -- Lyne

My wife and I have been playing matches against each other for years.  I hate par 3s.  She gets a stroke there and plays from the up front tees, I am toast.  It's just not fair.   ;)

Forrest Richardson

  • Karma: +0/-0
Re: 5, 8, 5
« Reply #29 on: February 27, 2009, 09:43:03 AM »
 15   145   135   125    
 16   200   175   135    
 17   125   115   105    

These are the meters being targeted for now. Obviously there are interim yardages as these are just the scorecard numbers. Add 10% for yard conversion.

— Forrest Richardson, Golf Course Architect/ASGCA
    www.golfgroupltd.com
    www.golframes.com

W.H. Cosgrove

  • Karma: +0/-0
Re: 5, 8, 5
« Reply #30 on: February 27, 2009, 09:55:45 AM »
Forrest the question I have relates to the "Flow" that Tom has been discussing.  As background, I have always thought that the golf course is like a good story, with a beginning a middle and an end.  The end would be the denouement or resolution of the dramatic climax. 

Does the string of three par threes add to the drama or does it create break in the action that detracts from the competition?  Doak's back to back threes works at PD in part because you see the ocean on the tenth but don't quite get there, and then the drama is resolved on the dramatic 11th.

Now, could the nines be reversed to move the disonant feature to the middle of the round rather than the end?

Ally Mcintosh

  • Karma: +0/-0
Re: 5, 8, 5
« Reply #31 on: February 27, 2009, 10:02:56 AM »
I think Cullen Golf Club has three Par-3's on the trot... But it is very short.

I certainly don't know of it on a Par-72.

I suppose all rules are there to be broken once in a while but the other options must have had plenty of baggage with them?

What do you think the general perception will be by the public? If there is a "must have a championship course" owner, is this not scuppering his desires (from a general perception point of view)?

Adrian_Stiff

  • Karma: +0/-0
Re: 5, 8, 5
« Reply #32 on: February 27, 2009, 10:14:56 AM »
15   145   135   125    
 16   200   175   135    
 17   125   115   105    

These are the meters being targeted for now. Obviously there are interim yardages as these are just the scorecard numbers. Add 10% for yard conversion.


Could 16 be stretched 30 metres into par 4 land?
A combination of whats good for golf and good for turf.
The Players Club, Cumberwell Park, The Kendleshire, Oake Manor, Dainton Park, Forest Hills, Erlestoke, St Cleres.
www.theplayersgolfclub.com

Matt_Ward

Re: 5, 8, 5
« Reply #33 on: February 27, 2009, 10:17:32 AM »
Tom D:

Try to re-read what I actually posted.

I don't have an issue with five (5) par-5 type holes. The issue is whether you can get serious and well done differentiation that keeps things on a high level. Superb to excellent par-5 holes are always tough to design because of the spread of player skill levels and the amount of different shots / angles one has to include with each separate hole. Often times, there may be one or two such holes that are far less than the other three.

Got it now.

I am full aware of what Jim Engh does on a few of his courses and I might add that he often pulls the five par-5 show off with great flair in a few of the designs I have played.

In regards to the "rhythm" issue you raised that can be overcome with a fairly lengthy par-3 hole thrown into the mix -- ideally sandwiched between the other two if the site allows for it obviously. Kyle hit the nail on the hit with his post immediately after yours.

JMorgan

  • Karma: +0/-0
Re: 5, 8, 5
« Reply #34 on: February 27, 2009, 11:00:42 AM »
Whatever you do decide, Forrest, by all means keep the goat bridge. 

Better yet if you can get goats that faint and yodel. 
« Last Edit: February 27, 2009, 11:18:53 AM by JMorgan »

Rich Goodale

Re: 5, 8, 5
« Reply #35 on: February 27, 2009, 11:01:56 AM »
I'm not so sure about the goat bridge,  Aftrer all, the llamas at Tallamore didn't work out so well for Rees........

Forrest Richardson

  • Karma: +0/-0
Re: 5, 8, 5
« Reply #36 on: February 27, 2009, 11:04:06 AM »
In answer to the question  of whether we can stretch one of the 3s — sure, we can do anything (almost) !

The comments here are interesting. There has been a lot of thought, including each of the concerns expressed.

My view is that a series of par-3s can be very interesting, especially when there are two others that go toward making up the overall round. For one, it is different — and differences are what separates courses from one another. I am confident (for now anyway) that this "feature" is part of the mix and will help define the club.

One of the interesting aspects is that we do not have to do this — e.g., we can easily 'overcome' it — but the idea seemed powerful once we looked at options. For some reason I like taking this approach better when it is not an outright requirement. For example, in the situation where the land might be so rugged or there may be such an amazing opportunity for a series of three par-3s, we are left with the "well, there was no other choice..." or "maybe the site was not used correctly..." or "gee, this is an obvious use for this unusual series..." — but here we have a canvas that will appear (after construction) to have been a mostly blank canvas (the obstacles we have overcome will not be apparent to the golfer because this is generally farmland that 'looks' blank) and, therefore, it would likely never cross one's mind that the routing was anything but purposeful.


« Last Edit: February 27, 2009, 11:09:29 AM by Forrest Richardson »
— Forrest Richardson, Golf Course Architect/ASGCA
    www.golfgroupltd.com
    www.golframes.com

Forrest Richardson

  • Karma: +0/-0
Re: 5, 8, 5
« Reply #37 on: February 27, 2009, 11:06:13 AM »
Rich — Since the goat bridge is one of my favorite ideas, I am posting it again. Hey look, the smiley is looking up at them...


 ::)

— Forrest Richardson, Golf Course Architect/ASGCA
    www.golfgroupltd.com
    www.golframes.com

Bill_McBride

  • Karma: +0/-0
Re: 5, 8, 5
« Reply #38 on: February 27, 2009, 11:14:17 AM »
holes amidst a farmhouse, ditch, Bronze Age burial site and five isolated wetlands that were off limits. Frankly, I was somewhat bored with the other solutions and this is odd, but creates some interest. I share the concerns, however, so I appreciate the comments.


'Bronze Age burial site?'

That reminds me of the Iron Age fort that is in the center of Painswick Golf Course in the Cotswolds.   There are three par 3s (2 short ones blind up over the ramparts and one great long one inside the fort) in the area of the fort, and while there are never 3 in a row, I can't see any reason why it wouldn't work if the terrain is unusual enough for it work.

Beat me to it Bill, but you are not completely right here - there are 4 (perhaps 5) par 3's involved withing that fort, and 3 of them are in a row. 

There is the short #5 up and over, the long #6 within and then the downhill #7 leaving the fort. 
Followed by Sean Arble 'death wish' a (#8) and b (#9)  par 5's away and back,
Then another #11 up and over par 3. 
#12 as a short 4 inside the fort pales (I loved that hole).
I think #13 leaving the fort is a long downhill 3.

That said, having Painswick as an example of routing 3 par 3's in a row is probably not going to hold much water for Forrest.

James B

All true except #11 is a 245 yard par 4 followed by #12, a 250 yard par 3.   ;D

I think you got one off in the numbering, as #10 is the up and over followed by short par 4 #11 and long par 3 #12.

The three consecutive par 3s are #5, 6 and 7.

Kalen Braley

  • Karma: +0/-0
Re: 5, 8, 5
« Reply #39 on: February 27, 2009, 11:17:43 AM »
Just out of curiousity....

What are the fundamental differences between having a long string of par 3s vs a long string of par 4s in terms of flow?

I know of at least a handful of very highly ranked/esteemed courses that have at least 4 par 4s in a row.

Thoughts?
« Last Edit: February 27, 2009, 12:06:38 PM by Kalen Braley »

Rich Goodale

Re: 5, 8, 5
« Reply #40 on: February 27, 2009, 11:24:16 AM »
Rich — Since the goat bridge is one of my favorite ideas, I am posting it again. Hey look, the smiley is looking up at them...


 ::)



Forrest

That is the most unnatural looking goat track I have ever seen.  Have you been channeling Bendelow again?

rich

Forrest Richardson

  • Karma: +0/-0
Re: 5, 8, 5
« Reply #41 on: February 27, 2009, 11:39:44 AM »
Kalen — That is an excellent argument. We take for granted the successive par-4s........why?........because it has become the 'norm' in golf design.
— Forrest Richardson, Golf Course Architect/ASGCA
    www.golfgroupltd.com
    www.golframes.com

Bill_Yates

  • Karma: +0/-0
Re: 5, 8, 5
« Reply #42 on: February 27, 2009, 12:16:03 PM »
Tom D.,
Your comment "...when you got back to the real holes.." is quite insightful as to your philosophy on design and indeed the game of golf.  Or am I misinterpreting your meaning?

My reading is that you don't believe Par 3's to be "real holes."  If that is the case, why not design what one might consider to be the ultimate golf course - 18 holes of all par 4's? 
Bill Yates
www.pacemanager.com 
"When you manage the pace of play, you manage the quality of golf."

rjsimper

  • Karma: +0/-0
Re: 5, 8, 5
« Reply #43 on: February 27, 2009, 01:42:02 PM »
Kalen — That is an excellent argument. We take for granted the successive par-4s........why?........because it has become the 'norm' in golf design.

Never hitting a wood...

Kyle Harris

Re: 5, 8, 5
« Reply #44 on: February 27, 2009, 01:44:27 PM »
The hole is a breakpoint in the rhythm of the game and man's integration with the golf course.

The hole is the point where man can intrude, and replace the ball - reintegrating with the golf course on his terms.

Tom Huckaby

Re: 5, 8, 5
« Reply #45 on: February 27, 2009, 02:03:07 PM »
The hole is a breakpoint in the rhythm of the game and man's integration with the golf course.

The hole is the point where man can intrude, and replace the ball - reintegrating with the golf course on his terms.

Kyle - WHOA! 
Took some head-scratching, but I think I figured that out and you (or whoever said that if you are quoting) are correct.
However, have you ever hear the term "beard-pulling"?

It's just a game, man.

 ;D

Kyle Harris

Re: 5, 8, 5
« Reply #46 on: February 27, 2009, 02:10:06 PM »
The hole is a breakpoint in the rhythm of the game and man's integration with the golf course.

The hole is the point where man can intrude, and replace the ball - reintegrating with the golf course on his terms.

Kyle - WHOA! 
Took some head-scratching, but I think I figured that out and you (or whoever said that if you are quoting) are correct.
However, have you ever hear the term "beard-pulling"?

It's just a game, man.

 ;D

It is, but I think that's very soul as to why it's more acceptable to have longer holes in strings than shorter holes. There is more potential "game" involved with the longer holes - no matter how much interest we find in the shorter holes - it is inevitably sooner that we have to reset the integration with nature.

Tom Huckaby

Re: 5, 8, 5
« Reply #47 on: February 27, 2009, 02:12:36 PM »
Kyle - OK, Ok, I get ya.  Sorry for the smartassedness.

I do think you need to look into what "beard-pulling" means, however.

 ;D

Kyle Harris

Re: 5, 8, 5
« Reply #48 on: February 27, 2009, 02:14:24 PM »
Kyle - OK, Ok, I get ya.  Sorry for the smartassedness.

I do think you need to look into what "beard-pulling" means, however.

 ;D

You're just afraid because it rattles (but does not break) the foundation of the legitimacy of your only hole-in-one.

Tom Huckaby

Re: 5, 8, 5
« Reply #49 on: February 27, 2009, 02:16:17 PM »
Kyle - OK, Ok, I get ya.  Sorry for the smartassedness.

I do think you need to look into what "beard-pulling" means, however.

 ;D

You're just afraid because it rattles (but does not break) the foundation of the legitimacy of your only hole-in-one.

Kyle, the foundation of that legitimacy is as sound as jello pudding.

I'm just being a smartass.

 ;D

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