5, 8, 5

[Forrest Richardson]

We just finished a review of several routing plans, settling on one with 5 par-3s, 8 par-4s, and 5 par-5s. The front nine is fairly "normal" with 4, 4, 4, 5, 3, 4, 4, 5, 3 — but, the back is odd (at least to me) with 5, 4, 5, 4, 4, 3, 3, 3, 5.

I am well aware of Bishop Auckland (North of England), but is there anywhere else we see a series of three par-3s ?

[Kyle Harris]

We just finished a review of several routing plans, settling on one with 5 par-3s, 8 par-4s, and 5 par-5s. The front nine is fairly "normal" with 4, 4, 4, 5, 3, 4, 4, 5, 3 — but, the back is odd (at least to me) with 5, 4, 5, 4, 4, 3, 3, 3, 5.

I am well aware of Bishop Awklund (North of England), but is there anywhere else we see a series of three par-3s ?

Walnut Lane in Philadelphia.

The 4th-6th holes are Par 3s which form the sides of a near equilateral triangle. The fourth plays downhill along one side of a valley, the fifth plays across the valley, and the sixth plays back uphill along the other side of the valley near the 4th tee. One of the neatest routing quirks I've seen.

[Matt_Ward]

Forrest:

Yes, there is a course in NJ -- Spring Brook CC in Morristown which features three (3) consecutive par-3's at the 9th, 10th and 11 holes. And, each of them is quite interesting.

Just one other thought -- getting five (5) really interesting par-5 holes is often quite tough because you have to balance such a wide disparity between the really strong players and those who are towards the weak side of the aisle.

Curious to know what the total length of the course will be.

[Ian Andrew]

Forrest,

One of the courses I work with had three par three in the original routing - Glendale in Hamilton. The routing was later altered to deal with storm damage and also to eliminate the three par threes in a row.

I played it in that configuration for a series of years and despite each being good holes - I was not a fan.

My two cents...

[Tom_Doak]

Matt:

I thought you were a big fan of having five par-5's.  Doesn't Jim Engh do that fairly often?

Forrest:

Personally, I don't think I would ever consider a routing with three par-3's in a row ... to me it would be impossible to keep the flow of the course going through a stretch like that, and to vary the holes enough.  What caused you to consider the three consecutive par-3's?  Land too severe for a fairway, or tight boundary issues?

[Joe Hancock]

What kind of pace of play issues might arise from a 3 par 3 sequence?

Joe

[Forrest Richardson]

Matt: It is just at 7,000 yards back (6,400 meters). This site is in Sweden. I varied the par-5s, but was blessen with a constantly sloping site — so even with equal lengths, they play much differently because some run with the contours and the others run down, or fight the gradient.

Tom D. — The pace works, although it is somewhat of a gamble. I had a chat with Bill Yates (pace-of-play consultant) and we spoke about No. 10 and 11 (par-5 and short par-4). I adjusted the 11th to try and suggest not going for the green. Actually, at this club we expect an average handicap of 15+ so I am not all that concerned about the "Matt Ward" crowd who drives the ball 280+ and _____s with my designs.    I thought long and hard about the series, but I like the holes. I think people will look forward to it. My wife really likes it — and she usually does not have much of an opinion. But, to this, she said, and I quote, "I love par-3s, they are my favorite holes." No kidding.

The driving force was the constrained site and finding the best holes amidst a farmhouse, ditch, Bronze Age burial site and five isolated wetlands that were off limits. Frankly, I was somewhat bored with the other solutions and this is odd, but creates some interest. I share the concerns, however, so I appreciate the comments.

[Forrest Richardson]

Joe — Good question. Bill Yates was more concerned with the preceding holes. The par-3s will meter themselves, pretty much regardless of how many you string together. The trick is to slow play (or pace it properly) before the series of par-3s. I do wish the crowd here would sit on one one of Bill's sessions. Amazing things could be learned. Not many realize that The Castle Course routing was selected, in part, with Bill's input. Bill felt it would provide the best opportunity for less waits and a better overall pace.

[Bill_McBride]

holes amidst a farmhouse, ditch, Bronze Age burial site and five isolated wetlands that were off limits. Frankly, I was somewhat bored with the other solutions and this is odd, but creates some interest. I share the concerns, however, so I appreciate the comments.

'Bronze Age burial site?'

That reminds me of the Iron Age fort that is in the center of Painswick Golf Course in the Cotswolds.   There are three par 3s (2 short ones blind up over the ramparts and one great long one inside the fort) in the area of the fort, and while there are never 3 in a row, I can't see any reason why it wouldn't work if the terrain is unusual enough for it work.

[Forrest Richardson]

I am looking forward to spending more time in / around the burial site. They are all over Europe, especially Sweden. We plan on having goats graze the area around the burial site itself.

I have a planned goat ladder, such as the one my friend Bob Cage has at his sculpture farm in North Carloina. The goats cross over the golfers enroute from 13 to 14.

[James Bennett]

holes amidst a farmhouse, ditch, Bronze Age burial site and five isolated wetlands that were off limits. Frankly, I was somewhat bored with the other solutions and this is odd, but creates some interest. I share the concerns, however, so I appreciate the comments.

'Bronze Age burial site?'

That reminds me of the Iron Age fort that is in the center of Painswick Golf Course in the Cotswolds.   There are three par 3s (2 short ones blind up over the ramparts and one great long one inside the fort) in the area of the fort, and while there are never 3 in a row, I can't see any reason why it wouldn't work if the terrain is unusual enough for it work.

Beat me to it Bill, but you are not completely right here - there are 4 (perhaps 5) par 3's involved withing that fort, and 3 of them are in a row. 

There is the short #5 up and over, the long #6 within and then the downhill #7 leaving the fort. 
Followed by Sean Arble 'death wish' a (#8) and b (#9)  par 5's away and back,
Then another #11 up and over par 3. 
#12 as a short 4 inside the fort pales (I loved that hole).
I think #13 leaving the fort is a long downhill 3.

That said, having Painswick as an example of routing 3 par 3's in a row is probably not going to hold much water for Forrest.

James B

[Tom_Doak]

Forrest:

When I said I thought I wouldn't like the "flow of the course" I wasn't meaning to talk about pace of play ... in fact I had started to use the word "pace" but changed it.

What I meant was just the rhythm of playing golf.  A par-3 is sort of an odd interruption in the flow of hitting your ball and finding it and hitting it again; it's also an interruption of using your driver off the tee.  To go three straight holes where you are hitting an iron off the tee and then putting ... when you got back to the real holes it would feel very awkward, I think.  [Another example of this is when you have par-3's every other hole for a stretch, like at Forest Highlands ... it just feels weird.]

By that logic, though, I think it is better that you have this sequence right near the end of the round.

[Kyle Harris]

Forrest:

When I said I thought I wouldn't like the "flow of the course" I wasn't meaning to talk about pace of play ... in fact I had started to use the word "pace" but changed it.

What I meant was just the rhythm of playing golf.  A par-3 is sort of an odd interruption in the flow of hitting your ball and finding it and hitting it again; it's also an interruption of using your driver off the tee.  To go three straight holes where you are hitting an iron off the tee and then putting ... when you got back to the real holes it would feel very awkward, I think.  [Another example of this is when you have par-3's every other hole for a stretch, like at Forest Highlands ... it just feels weird.]

By that logic, though, I think it is better that you have this sequence right near the end of the round.

For the record, Forrest never stated yardages. What if one of the holes plays 250?

[Mark Pearce]

Bishop Awkland?  WTF?  Is that anywhere near Bishop Auckland?

[Jon Wiggett]

Bishop Awkland?  WTF?  Is that anywhere near Bishop Auckland?

No Mark, Bishop Awkland is a senior member of the clergy living in the outback of Australia. The golf course mentioned is his private one

[Adrian_Stiff]

Forrest- I am just completing a course with 3 par 5s 8 par 4's and 7 par 3 holes (The Stranahan- nr Bristol, UK) It does not have 3 consective par 3 holes although 15, 16 and 18 are short holes. It is not ideal but I felt it worked better being at the end of the round. They are interesting holes and different.

Painswick 5, 6 and 7 as mentioned, Church Stretton starts 1, 2 and 3 are two other I know off. I suspect there are more on courses sub 66 par.

[Neil_Crafter]

3 par threes in a row eh Forrest.

Our record is 9 in a row at Barwon Heads..................but admittedly it is a par three course.

[Rich Goodale]

I'm disappointed in the content of this thread.  I was hoping to hear about Forrest's decision to stick a par-8 between two par 5's.........

[Neil_Crafter]

I'm disappointed in the content of this thread.  I was hoping to hear about Forrest's decision to stick a par-8 between two par 5's.........

is that where you have two par 4s in a row but only one green?

[Forrest Richardson]

I have corrected the creative spelling of Aόckklόnde. Sorry.

[Rich Goodale]

I'm disappointed in the content of this thread.  I was hoping to hear about Forrest's decision to stick a par-8 between two par 5's.........

is that where you have two par 4s in a row but only one green?

Yes, Neil

I call it a corollary of the "Absent Minded Professor" Strategy, first articulated by Dr. Mackenzie at Crystal Downs, I believe......

Rich

[Lyne Morrison]

Forrest - are you able to share the yardages?

It would be interesting to know more of your wife's thinking, I figure she may well be thinking 'par 3 = manageable' (given that you mentioned she doesn't usually comment). How did you settle on breaking down the yardages for the average male and lady golfer? Thx.

Cheers -- Lyne

[Mark Pearce]

Not three in a row but Crail Balcomie has 4 par 3s in the last 6 holes, with 13, 14 and 16 being par 3s and 15 being a 250 yard par 4 (and, frequently, and easier 3 than 13 or 18).

[Rich Goodale]

You are being aukward these days, aren't you Mark?

[Mark Pearce]

You are being aukward these days, aren't you Mark?

Just a cantankerous phase.  Probably need to play some golf.