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Gib_Papazian

You have started your own club - who gets in?
« on: May 27, 2002, 10:33:20 AM »
The Tony Pioppi thread raised an interesting question in my mind.

Let us suppose that each member of the Treehouse managed to build a superb golf course on their own dime that everyone wanted to join.  

Since you own the place,  it is up to you to decide who gets in and who does not. There are no financial constraints - it does not  necessarily need to  make money or even pay for itself.

Is it public?

Semi-Private?

Private?

What are the membership requirements?

Do you allow reciprocals?

Can women play? Can they join? Is there a "men's only" grillroom?

We can go back and forth all day about what the architecture of the course would look like, but what  I am interested in is the basic organization and social complexion of the club.

Here is what I would do:

#1. There will be no absolute rules, except a ban on hats in the clubhouse. Michael M. Thomas would write the bylaws. George Bahto would be the first member after my dad and Todd Hagen.

#2. I would hire Group Captain Ian Pierce from Swinley Forest or G.C. Christopher Moore from Hoylake to act as  Club  Secretary. All employees would answer to either of them. Any member who does not adhere to their requests or decisions is OUT. Right now.

#3. Rich Spear from Piping Rock would be paid $500,000 a year to maintain the course. What he says goes. He is the Green Committee. That is it. Karl Olson is not an option . . . lightning would strike me from the heavens.

#4. There would be both a small men's and women's grill/bar downstairs attached to their locker rooms. The dining room upstairs would have a bar area for co-ed groups.  

#5. Everyone from GCA who has attained at least 3 stars is automatically in.

#6. For everyone else, if the Treehouse decides we like them, they are only required to answer one question:

"What is a Redan Hole?"

If they flunk, they obviously do not belong.

Bob Huntley has veto power on any and all membership  decisions.    


Ran,
Who gets into the Carthage Club?

  
« Last Edit: December 31, 1969, 07:00:05 PM by -1 »

A_Clay_Man

Re: You have started your own club - who gets in?
« Reply #1 on: May 27, 2002, 11:26:09 AM »
Wow, WHat an interesting question which reveals insight into ones own personal bias.

After careful deliberation I would want as diverse a clientel as possible. But, They must be efficient in ettiquette and pace of play.

Since golf is not an exact science and life is too boring when everyone is either from the same social or business class, love for the game and respect for others will be critical.
« Last Edit: December 31, 1969, 07:00:00 PM by 1056376800 »

RJ_Daley

  • Karma: +0/-0
Re: You have started your own club - who gets in?
« Reply #2 on: May 27, 2002, 12:43:54 PM »
OK Gib, I'll play.  At first I thought a response may lead to animosity since it is about "who gets in".  But in all honesty, starting my own club is just about all I ever dream about anymore, so what the heck ::)

My dream club would not be very elaborate on the clubhouse design side and would be minimalist to the max as a course design.  So operating expenses wouldn't be great.  It would be a situation of a few founders (<25) and then general members (no more than 100).  The founders would get in by being willing to share the nut of the initial develpment and would share in any profit or recovery of outlying property sale.  The founders would natuarally be intensely passionate about the course since they would share the initial cost and would have bought into the design and operational ideal.  Founding members would have a free 4some tee time everyday if they'd like.  All members would be the kind that would use their membership as a catalyst to offer the enjoyment to others whom they think would love the course and game as well.  The general members would be welcome from all walks of life and social strata and female and males.  The dues for them would be modest and affordable to most anyone who really loves the game.  The biggest criteria for membership would be the ability to demonstrate passion, humor, and respect over a period of time about the game and they would be the convivial kind that loves to share it with others.  Membership would naturally be quite a bit like the treehouse since that is sort of the essence of those who hang around here.

However, there would be some small expectations of each member.  Once a year they'd have to spend a day out on the course at the super's direction doing what ever they could learn to do.  Anything from raking bunkers to trimming areas to cutting cups to mowing the range or even if they get good enough, mow some greens with a walkbehind.  It is sort of like that Japanese Quality - Deming Process thing where you have to love and care for your facility first.

The course would be run "for profit" on a semi-private basis.  The guest policy would be very liberal in that unescorted guests and invitees would almost be the general public portion of people who play the course.  Tee times would be oriented to about 50% members and 50% general public-guest invitees.  Green fees would be determined based on what it takes to run at break-even 'at least' after all staff and costs of operations are paid.  

The maintenance operation would be run as an outreach program in conjunction with some vocational rehab center similar to the Malvern School or ChiChi's foundation.  The super would be both a good turf man, and a great mentor teacher.  He would have a staff of one mechanic willing to work and teach his small engine trade, four assistants one of which is really the trained professional to work with the youth staff, and the others would be aspiring superintendents willing to work as assistants and have the kowledge to really do the backbone of the technical turf work.

The clubhouse would be focused on a tavern like environment that has a decent kitchen facility where I would often prepare specials.  The bar room would be lots of wood and shelves full of old stuff and pictures and ceiling fans.  Founders may often be found bartending after rounds.  The dining room would only seat about 25 at a time and serve a very limitted menu of about two specials a day and perhaps 2-3 other old stand-by favorites.  Soup and sandwiches would always be available at the bar, and my auntie would make the soup!  ;)

There would be an outside covered hardtop pavillion with barbeque pits and picnic tables for outtings.  

Each founding member would be entitled to one day a year where he/she has the whole course in morning for a shotgun start to hold their own charity event and use the pavillion for entertainment and picnic.  They would be expected to do this cause that's the kind of folk they would be. 8)
« Last Edit: December 31, 1969, 07:00:05 PM by -1 »
No actual golf rounds were ruined or delayed, nor golf rules broken, in the taking of any photographs that may be displayed by the above forum user.

Gib_Papazian

Re: You have started your own club - who gets in?
« Reply #3 on: May 27, 2002, 02:23:32 PM »
Excellent! Just the kind of response I was hoping for. The intention of the question is not to be divisive - how can you be? The Treehouse is about as diverse as I can imagine both politically and socio-economically.

Plus, it is probably the only "club" where a guy like Bob Huntley would willingly rub elbows with an Armenian vegetable peddler or an opinionated Italian electrician ;)

The greater my experience in U.K. clubs. the more convinced I am that their model is exactly what I would want when starting a club in the states.

The women's issue is a stickier one - and because this is theoretical, I will stick by my desire to have separate locker rooms. We all need a break from the opposite sex and it was nice when Olympic was more like Garden City.

But I could not exclude anyone from membership based on sex, race or religion. What if Nicole Kidman applied for membership and knew what a Redan was?

« Last Edit: December 31, 1969, 07:00:00 PM by 1056376800 »

Patrick_Mucci

Re: You have started your own club - who gets in?
« Reply #4 on: May 27, 2002, 03:14:36 PM »
Gib,

Only golfers who LOVE, APPRECIATE AND RESPECT THE GAME.
« Last Edit: December 31, 1969, 07:00:00 PM by 1056376800 »

Robert "Cliff" Stanfield

  • Karma: +0/-0
Re: You have started your own club - who gets in?
« Reply #5 on: May 27, 2002, 03:38:48 PM »
I would have to start a cart girl program maybe in conjunction with Hooters.  Kinda like the Caddy Scholarship program.

I would make everybody walk and have to employ a caddy.  If you are evaluated as an SOB by the caddy you get a yellow card. 2 in a year equals red and you are asked to leave the club.

No equipment sales at the club and no mechandise.  Every member will have the opportunity to hit a closet that his full of the best new toys on the market.  If you like it gets ordered and put in your locker for next round.

Part of your locker dues and membership includes that your locker will always be stocked.  For instance...new gloves, preferred balls, tees, and change of clothes with correct size and style....and other vices...er rusty nail flasks, cayman balls(just kidding).

Clubhouse is single story and no larger than the average 4 bedroom house.  No swimming pool, no tennis courts, no asphalt!

Rocking chairs on the porch, cold drinks at the bar, and pickeled eggs in a jar on the bar.  Cubans sit in a humidor next to the freshly dated cans of copenhagen.  

Showers can knock the paint off a car and the when the toilet flushes a squirt of air freshner hits the air.  All staff have playing priveledges when not at work and have full rights to eminities.  The course is open to students of the game who are not employees or members....although a letter must be written along with their club pro's introduction or a letter form their past troopmaster or Mom.

In order to be a member you must play the golf course with several existing members prior to joining....during different weather and climates.  See who really wants to play even if its raining.

The course design:

Kudos on the comment of making each member work on the maintenance of the club once a year...like a piece of leased hunting land.

The design shall be of multiple designers and shall take years to study the land.  Each designer will be guaranteed membership and a competition for designing a par5 par4 and par3 shall be drafted for International competition.  Winners receive full membership and construction of their hole pending layout etc.

No cart paths and no ball washers and no tee signs.  Flags sticks will be wooden.  Flags shall be baskets.

If land permits there will be 36 holes...one with bent grass greens and the other with bermuda.  Practice facilities will have various putting greens for the differewnt grasses found nationally.

Oh and all of this has been paid for by a dead GCAer who has billions and left it ot the club to design a course.  The yearly dues similar to UK will be under 1000US and there is no set monthly food bill even if you dont show up to eat.

I have more but I will stop for now I am getting depressed.  


« Last Edit: December 31, 1969, 07:00:00 PM by 1056376800 »

Gib_Papazian

Re: You have started your own club - who gets in?
« Reply #6 on: May 27, 2002, 05:06:08 PM »
The clubhouse will be constructed on the bottom of a hill, not on top, unless the land is as good as Shinnecock or NGLA.

We will have a perfectly maintained "Children's Course" with miniature versions of CB/Raynor greens. Like a wonderful little course in Gullane, there will be a sign:

"No adults unless accompanied by a child."

Assistant Pro's will be requried to play with a different set of members at least once a week until everyone has played with them. Also, they will be paid handsomely. The American practice of paying our young professionals an embarrassingly low wage ends at Papazian Hills CC.

Any employee of the club - when not on duty - is free to play if there is a slot available. Members will be encouraged to invite the help into their group.

Anyone caught with a tennis racquet on the premises will be excommunicated.

The golf course will be closed during the final rounds of all major championships. That way everyone will gather together and watch golf history unfold.

There will be a shotgun tournament following conclusion of each final round.

Sunday afternoon is alternate shot only. You must play with somebody different every time.

Every chair will be ridiculously comfortable.

Anyone caught with their hat on backwards will be killed unless they are a major league catcher.

The food menu will be simple with no dishes I cannot pronounce. However, the wine cellar will be obnoxiously well stocked.

All members will be required to donate a case of their favorite vino every year. The brand will be posted in the clubhouse.

All scotches will be single malt.

High quality tequila only.

No Budweiser.

There will be at least a dozen overnight rooms. Simple and tasteful, they will also have Golf Channel at all times.

The airstrip will be able to takeoff and land my Citation.
« Last Edit: December 31, 1969, 07:00:00 PM by 1056376800 »

Robert "Cliff" Stanfield

  • Karma: +0/-0
Re: You have started your own club - who gets in?
« Reply #7 on: May 27, 2002, 05:41:19 PM »
hey budweiser is acceptable on broken white styrofoam cooler day
« Last Edit: December 31, 1969, 07:00:00 PM by 1056376800 »

TEPaul

Re: You have started your own club - who gets in?
« Reply #8 on: May 27, 2002, 06:16:32 PM »
If I owned the club I would tell Gib Papazian don't bother me with long explanations like those posts above--just run the place and if he thinks he has some kinda problem he can't handle give me a call otherwise maybe we have a meeting once a year like in the first week of January and the rest of the time Gib can take care of things however he wants.

For me, I'll just putter around and enjoy the views, maybe occasionally see if I can hit a putt up that kickup 180 degrees in the opposite direction from the cup and maybe sink about 1 out of 100! That's all I need to do!

Oh yeah, I'll hang this sign in a prominent place myself:

"The bunkering is best avoided to play this course successfully. Bunker maintenance is done only by the players themselves!"

« Last Edit: December 31, 1969, 07:00:00 PM by 1056376800 »

Bill_McBride

  • Karma: +0/-0
Re: You have started your own club - who gets in?
« Reply #9 on: May 27, 2002, 06:29:59 PM »
You got a Citation?

The course, which of course must be first rate, should be designed by one of the modern classicists, Doak, Hanse, Smyers, C&C.  The design should carefully follow the dictates of Dr. Mackenzie in his formal code of design criteria.  In particular, the course should be challenging for the skilled and fun for the less skilled.  The course should of course fit the site regardless of where the site may be located.  No "links" courses in parkland settings created merely by clear cutting and calling it a "links."

The clubhouse should not only be understated but actually somewhat rustic.  There should be a wide porch where play to and on the 9th and 18th greens can be observed.  There should be nothing fancier on the menu than a rib eye steak sandwich, and the cheeseburger should be locally famous.  As Gib indicates, the wine list should be excellent, with French and California wines that go well with steak sandwiches and cheeseburgers.

No swimming pool, no tennis courts.  A caddy program that actually employs caddies, and members who walk unless physically unable.  The caddies can play every Monday and clinics are part of the caddy program.

Handicaps should be scrupulously accurate but most casual play should be scratch with matches organized to reflect levels of skill.  

The lockers in mens and women's locker rooms should be purchased from Oakmont next time they upgrade their locker rooms.  Maybe the porch too.

The speed of the greens should reflect the internal contours of the greens.  Not necessarily "fair," but certainly playable.

As is the practice at Pensacola CC, the pros should actually play with the members, participating in the Saturday dog fight and other games.

Also like PCC, no tee times unless it's the club championship or something like that.  While this could create a problem at some clubs, everybody knows when to show up and there's never more than a 20 minute wait on the first tee.  A group on the 9th tee understands if a foursome jumps in on #10 to avoid a 20 minute wait.

Oh yeah, no restrictions on when women can play.  Again, everybody understands when to be there in order to get on and play fast.  All rounds are conducted in less than 3:30.  Because there's no fancy clubhouse, lavish food operation, and money losing pool and tennis courts, the membership can be around 200 and the initiation fee/dues can be modest.  The biggest item on the budget would be course maintenance.

I've actually been dreaming about belonging to a club like this for years.
« Last Edit: December 31, 1969, 07:00:00 PM by 1056376800 »

TEPaul

Re: You have started your own club - who gets in?
« Reply #10 on: May 27, 2002, 06:39:50 PM »
Bill McB;

Have I got your dream for you! You want to see it preconstruction?
« Last Edit: December 31, 1969, 07:00:00 PM by 1056376800 »

Bill_McBride

  • Karma: +0/-0
Re: You have started your own club - who gets in?
« Reply #11 on: May 27, 2002, 06:51:12 PM »
Tom - where and when?
« Last Edit: December 31, 1969, 07:00:00 PM by 1056376800 »

brad_miller

  • Karma: +0/-0
Re: You have started your own club - who gets in?
« Reply #12 on: May 27, 2002, 07:01:35 PM »
Just a point of clarification, reading what you'll are saying and assuming "free land" with great topography and sandy soil this project still will cost between $6-8MM to complete. Making this affortable to all those that love, honor and respect the game is not easy and not without significant RISK.

What is needed if one is not merely dreaming is a out of the way location (NOT North Dakoda) sandy soil, great natural topography, airport, 8 month season or better, proximity to other world class golf and a National Membership, because given the above issues there is not a local area that can afford the structure.

500 members...$20,000
750 members...$15,000... and you still have dues.

And since this is a field of dreams, you better build one hell of a golf course, IT MUST BE WORLD CLASS!!!
« Last Edit: December 31, 1969, 07:00:05 PM by -1 »

Bill_McBride

  • Karma: +0/-0
Re: You have started your own club - who gets in?
« Reply #13 on: May 27, 2002, 07:05:41 PM »
Brad, there you go being realistic again.  This is "Field of Dreams" stuff.
« Last Edit: December 31, 1969, 07:00:00 PM by 1056376800 »

Mike_Sweeney

Re: You have started your own club - who gets in?
« Reply #14 on: May 27, 2002, 07:45:58 PM »
If you were a caddy as a kid, you are in. If your were not a caddy as a kid, then you have to caddy at The Club for at least 5 rounds with/for members. This is not meant to be a hazing, but rather to learn and apprciate the club, its developing traditions and its caddy program which is an integral piece of the club.

Similar to Sankaty Head or many of the clubs in UK and Ireland, it would be a private club during the prime season, but would be open to guest at off times and season who will have to play with our caddies who will educate them on proper etiquette at the club.
« Last Edit: December 31, 1969, 07:00:00 PM by 1056376800 »

Jeff Fortson

  • Karma: +0/-0
Re: You have started your own club - who gets in?
« Reply #15 on: May 27, 2002, 07:59:16 PM »
Being an Assistant Professional myself right now, I would want to join Gib's Club!!!  

I actually would open the membership to all GCA members only.  GCA Golf Club in the Hamptons or in Scotland would have a nice ring to it.  It would be a classic design with a minimalist's approach.  The clubhouse would be stock full of golf and golf architecture history.  

What a great thread!  I could write about this for hours!

Jeff F.
« Last Edit: December 31, 1969, 07:00:00 PM by 1056376800 »
#nowhitebelt

Gib_Papazian

Re: You have started your own club - who gets in?
« Reply #16 on: May 27, 2002, 08:01:12 PM »
The lockers will have no locks.

Our head professional will be an older guy who has been through the wars with other clubs and wants a permanent home.

The club will build him a very nice house - where he will live for free as long as he stays on the job.

The job will be for life, or until he voluntarily steps down.

Bartenders will be paid lots of money, but there will be no tipping allowed.

Every year, Rich Spear will be given an unlimited budget and whatever new equipment he wants. No committee, no questions asked.

There will NEVER EVER EVER be a professional event on the golf course of any type.

However, there will be an annual international invitational amateur event. Members will caddy for the players.

Guest fees will be a bottle of fine vino provided by the guest himself - to be enjoyed in the clubhouse after the round.

If we like the guest enough, we make him/her a member - provided Bob Huntley signs off on him.

If his wine sucks, he is never invited back - even if he knows what a Redan hole is.  
« Last Edit: December 31, 1969, 07:00:00 PM by 1056376800 »

mike_beene

  • Karma: +0/-0
Re: You have started your own club - who gets in?
« Reply #17 on: May 27, 2002, 08:11:03 PM »
no tee times.no caddie program.Walk and carry.Some single rider carts for those with health issues.Lunch buffet only.Porch and golf shop overlook number one.No hats in clubhouse.Small membership with guests encouraged .Ministers are given yearly memberships.Touring pros welcome but they pay like everyone else.Putts are holed.High ethics are most important.My test would be to see how the prospective member treats the employees.
« Last Edit: December 31, 1969, 07:00:00 PM by 1056376800 »

Lynn_Shackelford

  • Karma: +0/-0
Re: You have started your own club - who gets in?
« Reply #18 on: May 27, 2002, 08:17:39 PM »
;) Membership open all, unless you are actively involved in the entertainment industry or have reason to be involved inside the "beltway" in politics.
Must have rocking chairs overlooking the 18th green with bar service outside.
Each member must travel and play abroad each year.
Caddies will vote once annually to determine if any member is to be removed.
The greens are aerified, small tines and light top dressing, and the course is closed for 3 days during this period.  Maintenance is concentrated heavily on 3 Mondays monthly when the course is closed.
Must have active knowledge of Golf Club Atlas.
Active reading of Golfweek Superintendent is not necessary.
« Last Edit: December 31, 1969, 07:00:00 PM by 1056376800 »
It must be kept in mind that the elusive charm of the game suffers as soon as any successful method of standardization is allowed to creep in.  A golf course should never pretend to be, nor is intended to be, an infallible tribunal.
               Tom Simpson

Lynn_Shackelford

  • Karma: +0/-0
Re: You have started your own club - who gets in?
« Reply #19 on: May 27, 2002, 08:20:08 PM »
;D I forgot, USC Trojans are allowed, but only if they admit they are often wrong and occasionally in doubt.
« Last Edit: December 31, 1969, 07:00:00 PM by 1056376800 »
It must be kept in mind that the elusive charm of the game suffers as soon as any successful method of standardization is allowed to creep in.  A golf course should never pretend to be, nor is intended to be, an infallible tribunal.
               Tom Simpson

duh

Re: You have started your own club - who gets in?
« Reply #20 on: May 27, 2002, 08:34:03 PM »
I hear a lot of idealism out there.  This is a similar question to asking who it is that should get a donor liver when hundreds of people are on the waiting list.  When push comes to shove the people in your club will be those who pay the bills.  Can I be a part of club utopia just because I love the shit out of good golf courses.  I have a good heart.  
« Last Edit: December 31, 1969, 07:00:00 PM by 1056376800 »

Pete_Pittock

  • Karma: +0/-0
Re: You have started your own club - who gets in?
« Reply #21 on: May 27, 2002, 08:56:03 PM »
Entry requirements include writing a good essay about "what is golf" and a promise to leave their cell phone in the car. Local membership of 200, with national memberships available, Reciprocal play and tee times for singles to meet and play.  Twelve minute tee times, with a club rule that if a group catches you, they must be allowed to play through.
The course will be designed to be playable in reverse and have minimal sprinkler coverage, for fairways only, so it will play firm and fast. And a dormie house.
« Last Edit: December 31, 1969, 07:00:00 PM by 1056376800 »

Gib_Papazian

Re: You have started your own club - who gets in?
« Reply #22 on: May 27, 2002, 10:22:59 PM »
In the spirit of inclusivity, even aging basketball icons will be admitted, provided their son documents the club history.  

Bruins will not be required to answer the Redan question because it discriminates on the basis of I.Q. - however, they will be given bonus points if smart enough to send their offspring to a private university . . . . . oh, like Pepperdine. ;)

The clubhouse will have a big-screen monitor, continuously updating GCA posts. There will be keyboards strewn out in the grillroom.

For those who cannot type, we will have voice recognition technology to post by simply talking.
« Last Edit: December 31, 1969, 07:00:00 PM by 1056376800 »

George Pazin

  • Karma: +0/-0
Re: You have started your own club - who gets in?
« Reply #23 on: May 27, 2002, 10:35:48 PM »
The only question left is what clubs currently are closest to Gib's ideals?

And what US clubs would be if they didn't have to worry about lawsuits?
« Last Edit: December 31, 1969, 07:00:00 PM by 1056376800 »
Big drivers and hot balls are the product of golf course design that rewards the hit one far then hit one high strategy.  Shinny showed everyone how to take care of this whole technology dilemma. - Pat Brockwell, 6/24/04

Gib_Papazian

Re: You have started your own club - who gets in?
« Reply #24 on: May 27, 2002, 11:27:02 PM »
Oh, I forgot one of the most important things:

There will be an enormous golf library in the grillroom of first edition copies. Members may take anything they like home to be brought back when they have read it.

The walls will be covered with memorabilia. . . . . . think Garden City.

Everywhere - especially the locker room - will have golf balls and all sorts of clubs both old and new strewn out or leaning against walls.

It is important when sharing a cocktail to have a club handy to waggle.

I want a wooden target, similar to the one in the bar at the Pinecrest Inn (Pinehurst Village), to settle bets. Indoor chip-offs in the bar are marvelously entertaining . . . . we are all still boys at heart.

As a final little touch, there will be a large and deep pond adjacent to the clubhouse full of bass and trout with a shack full of lures and fly casting equipment. Barbless hooks, catch and release - unless you are going to eat your catch immediately.

The kitchen will have a cook on staff at all times to prepare your fish.

Use of Power Bait is grounds for immediate expulsion from the club.

  
« Last Edit: December 31, 1969, 07:00:00 PM by 1056376800 »