Could any other golf course

[Patrick_Mucci]

undergo all the changes that Augusta has gone through and still remain a superb challenge for every level of golfer ?

Is Augusta's abililty to continue to challenge, while being enjoyable to play and watch play, a tribute to the genius of the routing and the basic hole designs ?

Could any other course have tolerated all those changes and still remained fun, yet challenging, especially with ONLY two sets of tees.

Is Augusta the true product of a great architect and a great golfer ?

[Bill Gayne]

The only course that immediately comes to mind but it has multiple sets of tees is Pinehurst #2.

[Paul Stephenson]

The Old Course?

I can't disagree with you regarding Augusta but I don't think it is alone in this regard.

And I didn't know Fazio was a great golfer  

[Tom_Doak]

Patrick:

Are you sure that Augusta is still great from that other set of tees?  It's been several years since I played it, but there is such a huge disparity now between the two sets that there must be a lot of people who wish there was some middle ground.

(In fact, if I remember correctly, Jack Nicklaus and Arnold Palmer have put themselves in that category.)

[Joe Hancock]

undergo all the changes that Augusta has gone through and still remain a superb challenge for every level of golfer ?

I think so. Could Seminole have quite a few trees added and still be really good at what it is?

Is Augusta's abililty to continue to challenge, while being enjoyable to play and watch play, a tribute to the genius of the routing and the basic hole designs ?

I think there are only a handful of GCA.com'ers that can even attempt an answer at this.


Could any other course have tolerated all those changes and still remained fun, yet challenging, especially with ONLY two sets of tees.

To answer this question, we have to first start with the fundamental question of "which courses only have two sets of tees?"

Is Augusta the true product of a great architect and a great golfer ?

Of course. Unless all the history we've read about the course is a lie.

[Kyle Harris]

Can another, more likely accurate, conclusion be made by studying the changes to the greens?

[Peter Pallotta]

Patrick -

I think Augusta is the product of an age of intellectual ferment and curiosity, of a time when ideas AS ideas held sway, of an era in which the value of fundamental principles was high, of a period in history when the world's greatest golfer was (and could be) a rennaissance man and life-long amateur, a lawyer and of writer of elegance and grace. It is the product of a thoughtful but practical architect working alongside, and with mutual respect, a practical but thoughtful champion golfer.

Peter   

[PCCraig]

I think the common theme between golf courses that challenge every level of golfers are 1) lack of forced carrys, 2) wide fairways, and most importantly 3) great greens.

[Patrick_Mucci]

Patrick:

Are you sure that Augusta is still great from that other set of tees?  It's been several years since I played it, but there is such a huge disparity now between the two sets that there must be a lot of people who wish there was some middle ground.

Augusta remains fun and challenging from the Member's tees, and, it's hard to dispute the challenge and fun for the better player from the Masters tees, but, since the golf course was recently stretched to 7,400+, a gap has  been created between the two sets that might leave some players with either too much or too little of a challenge.  A third set at about 6,900 would seem to round out the appeal to a far broader spectrum

(In fact, if I remember correctly, Jack Nicklaus and Arnold Palmer have put themselves in that category.)

I don't know what Arnie and Jack are shooting from the Member's tees but I haven't heard any accounts of super low scores, and I haven't heard them complaining or resigning.  But, I have to believe that the Masters tees are not their favorite locations to play from.  They too would probably benefit and prefer to play from 6,900.

Remember, this thread was framed in the context of the golf course from 1934 to 2009, and not just 2009.

[Sean Leary]

Pat,

I know you have played there a few times. Which years did you play, and how did the changes affect your opinion of it with regards to your game?

[TEPaul]

Patrick:

I don't know if some should challenge your premise that ANGC remains a challenge for all levels (or the same kind of challenge for all levels it once was) but they probably should challenge an assertion that they are as good for all levels as they once were and certainly whether all the changes made to the course over the years were necessary.

Here's a question for you Patrick----why don't you find like a 1935 aerial of ANGC and suggest the club use it as a blueprint for tree removal today as you have been with Pine Valley and that 1925 aerial? 

[Patrick_Mucci]

Pat,

I know you have played there a few times. Which years did you play, and how did the changes affect your opinion of it with regards to your game?

Sean,

While the ANGC remains a wonderful golf course, I was disappointed in the narrowing of the golf course that took place post 1999.

Holes like 11, 14 and 17 were, what I would categorize as, overly narrowed, especially vis a vis tree planting.
In addition, the roughs were brought it.

While the course remained generally generous off the tee, one couldn't help feeling confined.

And, the added length has taken the course from a "manageable distance" for me, into another realm.  At app 7,465 the course, on less than very fast and firm days, is simply far too much golf course for me, making play from the Master's tees beyond my ability and certainly beyond my enjoyment level.

But, I understand the need for length for the best players in the world.

On another thread I suggested that the course had become one of extremes due to the great disparity in the Members tees, which are a little over 6,200, and the Masters tees which are app 7,465.  Another set of tees at 6,900 would seem to present the optimum choice for every level of golfer.

While Tom Huckaby debated the tees from which he would like to play, even at 6,200+ the golf course is a wonderful experience, but, when the greens aren't like you see them on TV, and they're not at those speeds in Oct, Nov, Dec, Jan and Feb, 6,200+ may be a little on the short side.

Still, it promotes fast rounds and a great experience, especially since we've all grown up watching the Masters every Spring, hence, it's like playing your own course after a long winter.  We remain familiar with every nook and cranny, every do or die shot for the last few decades.

The PGA Tour player's influence on the course has been at the expense of amateur play., but, that's just my opinion, TEPaul is still wrong.

[Patrick_Mucci]

Patrick:

I don't know if some should challenge your premise that ANGC remains a challenge for all levels (or the same kind of challenge for all levels it once was) but they probably should challenge an assertion that they are as good for all levels as they once were and certainly whether all the changes made to the course over the years were necessary.

Here's a question for you Patrick----why don't you find like a 1935 aerial of ANGC and suggest the club use it as a blueprint for tree removal today as you have been with Pine Valley and that 1925 aerial? 

Actually, I have the 1934 aerial, and the reality is, other than the process of maturity, ANGC didn't plant trees that substantively altered play between 1934 and 1999.

In addition, ANGC didn't tolerate benign neglect, resulting in the unbridled growth of trees/shrubs/underbrush that affected play and AM and RTJJR's intent.

As curators, those in charge at ANGC protected their golf course from the ravages of neglect, benign or intended during that period.

Had PV been as diligent, we wouldn't be having these discussions.