News:

This discussion group is best enjoyed using Google Chrome, Firefox or Safari.


Garland Bayley

  • Karma: +0/-0
Pragmatism/Minimalism
« on: February 25, 2009, 09:56:07 PM »
Could minimalist golf design be correctly classified as pragmatic golf design?

I couldn't help think that all the wonderful discussion on the Northern Trust thread mostly lacked pragmatism. Then Tom Doak chimed in wondering about all the wonderful things DS was saying, and I thought is Tom being pragmatic, because DS certainly wasn't.

Discuss.
"I enjoy a course where the challenges are contained WITHIN it, and recovery is part of the game  not a course where the challenge is to stay ON it." Jeff Warne

Charlie Goerges

  • Karma: +0/-0
Re: Pragmatism/Minimalism
« Reply #1 on: February 26, 2009, 09:25:59 AM »
Just a seat-of-the-pants thought based on the the meaning of the two words. No.



Now that doesn't mean that folks like Tom Doak who are often classified as minimalist can't be pragmatic. Perhaps a better name for the minimalist style would be the pragmatic style.
Severally on the occasion of everything that thou doest, pause and ask thyself, if death is a dreadful thing because it deprives thee of this. - Marcus Aurelius

Garland Bayley

  • Karma: +0/-0
Re: Pragmatism/Minimalism
« Reply #2 on: February 26, 2009, 12:23:48 PM »
One fairly common quote you will find from the Old Dead Guys is that you cannot create the infinite variety and interest that is found in nature. Constructed land forms typically fall short. Therefore, it is pragmatic to chose your land wisely and to not do a significant number of "improvements" to it. Isn't that essentially what Tom has been doing? Taking a pragmatic approach?

In the armchair contest, I found it surprising that many of the contestants asked about the possiblility of using the smoove tool to reshape the land. I looked at the land, and thought how could you improve on that?
"I enjoy a course where the challenges are contained WITHIN it, and recovery is part of the game  not a course where the challenge is to stay ON it." Jeff Warne

Charlie Goerges

  • Karma: +0/-0
Re: Pragmatism/Minimalism
« Reply #3 on: February 26, 2009, 01:14:48 PM »
I think pragmatism is a more apt term for what the "minimalists" do. By way of example, (and in the vein of your comment on the Armchair Arch contest) what would you do if you could minimalistically route say 15 good holes but the other 3 would be god-awful (and perhaps a legal liability) and your next best minimalist routing would yield 6 good holes, 6 average holes, and 6 not-so-great holes?

I'd say that if you were sticking to 'minimalism' you'd have to do the second option. If you subscribed to 'pragmatism' you'd do the first, but move some earth to make the other 3 holes serviceable at least.

Getting back to the contest, I was surprized that people were concerned with moving earth, but mostly because I didn't think they'd have time. What I'd told everyone was to essentially do the first option above and that the judges would assume some earthmoving would need to be done on some holes. That way the contest would reward the routing of the most good golf holes (within the judges estimation of course).
Severally on the occasion of everything that thou doest, pause and ask thyself, if death is a dreadful thing because it deprives thee of this. - Marcus Aurelius

Tom_Doak

  • Karma: +1/-1
Re: Pragmatism/Minimalism
« Reply #4 on: February 26, 2009, 03:41:57 PM »
I have never thought that minimalism was anything more than the common sense approach to golf that I saw living in Scotland.  I think that's even the first sentence of something on my web site.

Scott Warren

  • Karma: +0/-0
Re: Pragmatism/Minimalism
« Reply #5 on: February 26, 2009, 03:59:20 PM »
Tom,

What % of jobs that are put to you do you knock back?

It seems to me that to continually build courses of a high standard - on top-quality sites - you'd have to be pretty discerning with what you choose. How hard is it to balance keeping a growing team busy while maintaining high standards?

cheers,
Scott

Charlie Goerges

  • Karma: +0/-0
Re: Pragmatism/Minimalism
« Reply #6 on: February 26, 2009, 05:10:14 PM »
I think of it in pretty much the same way Tom, but I was seizing on the comparison that Garland was making. Clearly minimalism and pragmatism don't mean the same thing, so my original answer was no. However I can see now that Garland wasn't necessarily equating the terms, and so my answer would change somewhat. But perhaps 'pragmatic minimalism' would be a more apt name.

I do think that this thread brings up a few good questions.

How does one define a style of design?

How does a given style of design relate to the method of design?

A quasi-hypothetical example/question to elucidate what I mean (forgive me if this has been covered before):

For the sake of arguement, let's say that two courses are basically the same. They play the same (ground options, short green to tee walks etc.), look the same (rustic, hairy-edged bunkers, fescue turf etc.), cost about the same to play. These two courses are the same design style in my book.

The difference in the two is in what was done to make the land they inhabit into golf courses. Course A was routed over the many varied and interesting natural features on the property. Little earth had to be moved. Course B was a flat, degraded farm site on which interesting landforms had to be created to make the course interesting. In my book, these two courses used different design methods. Not necessarily different means, but different methods.

When we talk about what the minimalists do, I think we're usually talking about the method, not the style. I know (or think) Tom D. has done both methods described above (as well as many more probably). I'm curious what folks think about the differences above and whether it might be folly to try to come up with such categories as minimalist etc.
« Last Edit: February 26, 2009, 05:16:58 PM by Charlie Goerges »
Severally on the occasion of everything that thou doest, pause and ask thyself, if death is a dreadful thing because it deprives thee of this. - Marcus Aurelius

Garland Bayley

  • Karma: +0/-0
Re: Pragmatism/Minimalism
« Reply #7 on: February 26, 2009, 10:02:11 PM »
As I noted in the first post, I felt minimalism can be considered a pragmatic approach. That does not equate the two. If you get a Ballyneal, then it is pragmatic to build it out with minimalism. If you obtain the status of Tom Doak then you can pragmatically pick the best pieces of property for building minimalist golf courses. If you can't get as great a property (as Charlie suggested) it is pragmatic to build the interesting parts in the minimist style, and to enhance the rest pragmatically within budget.

Personally, I doubt you will get as great a course by building up a bad piece of property as you will get from building out a great piece of property.
"I enjoy a course where the challenges are contained WITHIN it, and recovery is part of the game  not a course where the challenge is to stay ON it." Jeff Warne

Tom_Doak

  • Karma: +1/-1
Re: Pragmatism/Minimalism
« Reply #8 on: February 26, 2009, 10:27:31 PM »
Scott:

Lately there are not enough jobs out there to compute a meaningful percentage!

In the past I was quite picky -- but not so much because of the properties themselves.  Most of the jobs I've passed on were because I didn't think the client would let us do our best work [more concerned with housing than golf], or because I didn't think I had the time to do more jobs at once.

Today, I'd love to have more to do, but that's how the world works I guess.  That's the sad part of the last ten years ... if we'd just laid off the gas a little bit there would still be lots to do now.

Tags:
Tags:

An Error Has Occurred!

Call to undefined function theme_linktree()
Back