Pebble Beach v Riviera ?

[David Stamm]

Sorry... I know I said I'd stay in the corner but I can't resist....

It seems to me this has very little to do with setting.  Those who want to assess "design" and "architecture" prefer Riv, those who base this on playing the game prefer Pebble.

 

So those attributes are mutually exclusive?

[Tom Huckaby]

Sorry... I know I said I'd stay in the corner but I can't resist....

It seems to me this has very little to do with setting.  Those who want to assess "design" and "architecture" prefer Riv, those who base this on playing the game prefer Pebble.

 

So those attributes are mutually exclusive?

Oh yes, quite clearly so - to me they are indeed two totally different questions.. and as I've said many times, I feel wholly unqualified to begin to assess the former.  I'd never make a statement that " the design of Riviera is superior, IMHO. In other words, there's more architecture."

But more power to those of you who do want to look at it this way!  Part of the fun for those who want to evaluate design and architecture is of course the intricacies of such.  And it seems clear to me Riviera has this in spades.  Reading your post David it just struck me as a very clear case... there is indeed a lot to "study" at Riviera, clearly more so than at Pebble... but in terms of the joy and fun of playing the game without study or interest in design being a consideration well.... hell Riv must be great, Mr. Huntley's words ring loudly.. but again there is only one Pebble Beach.

TH

[Lynn_Shackelford]

Can we agree on this?

Golf experience---Pebble Beach

Golf architecture---Riviera

Before you respond,
yes Tom they can be separated.

[Tom Huckaby]

Can we agree on this?

Golf experience---Pebble Beach

Golf architecture---Riviera

Before you respond,
yes Tom they can be separated.

My arguments for years on here are not that they can be separated - that to me is a given - but more that they also OUGHT to be.

So I can't opine on your statement there - I can't evaluate golf course architecture, nor do I try.

I'd just say this:

More fun and inspiring to play:  Pebble Beach.

That's the only way I evaluate golf courses (outside of when I am forced to answer questions for magazines).   

[David Stamm]

Sorry... I know I said I'd stay in the corner but I can't resist....

It seems to me this has very little to do with setting.  Those who want to assess "design" and "architecture" prefer Riv, those who base this on playing the game prefer Pebble.

 

So those attributes are mutually exclusive?

 but again there is only one Pebble Beach.

 

Just like their is only one Riviera, one CPC, one NGLA, etc, etc. The attributes you describe can and do co-exist and Riviera and Pebble both have them. It's just one has more of one than the other and visa versa.

[Tom Huckaby]

Sorry David, I can't buy that at all, as I can't evaluate the aspects you seek to evaluate.

More fun and inspiring to play:  Pebble Beach.

That's it.  Nothing else matters.  Not to me, anyway... and dare I say 99% at least of the world's golfers....

 

[Bill_McBride]

It's like comparing a roller coaster to a merry go round!

Great line, Tim! 

[Jon Spaulding]

Put me in the Riviera camp, for reasons already mentioned by its supporters.

My personal preference is for the architecture component.....let's call it a brunette. I prefer them.

Others prefer the experience/view component....let's call it a blonde, with Pebble being in the upper realm. Not as much for my tastes.

Tommy Lee-Huckaby-Lauper touting his "guys just wanna have fun" concept.....he's snuggled up as tight to the Pam Anderson of golf courses as Hasselhoff's speedo on Baywatch.

[Tom Huckaby]

Put me in the Riviera camp, for reasons already mentioned by its supporters.

My personal preference is for the architecture component.....let's call it a brunette. I prefer them.

Others prefer the experience/view component....let's call it a blonde, with Pebble being in the upper realm. Not as much for my tastes.

Tommy Lee-Huckaby-Lauper touting his "guys just wanna have fun" concept.....he's snuggled up as tight to the Pam Anderson of golf courses as Hasselhoff's speedo on Baywatch.

Great stuff.  Audible yuks. 

If Pebble Beach is indeed the Pam Anderson of golf courses, then yes, put me down for chunky huge-breasted blondes.

I just do wonder how you managed to play it and miss so much.. especially being the fine student of architecture that you so obviously are.

TH

[Jon Spaulding]

Now you're throwing blows for Pebble like Spicoli used to do to protect Madonna.

Riviera simply offers more from a strategic and shot value standpoint over 18 holes than does Pebble, in my opinion.

[ed_getka]

I just do wonder how you managed to play it and miss so much.. especially being the fine student of architecture that you so obviously are.

TH

Tom,
    You hide behind not being a student of architecture and yet you are telling Jon he missed so much, is there a contradiction there? Sorry to get all lawyerly on you.

[Tom Huckaby]

I just do wonder how you managed to play it and miss so much.. especially being the fine student of architecture that you so obviously are.

TH

Tom,
    You hide behind not being a student of architecture and yet you are telling Jon he missed so much, is there a contradiction there? Sorry to get all lawyerly on you.

You're gonna need more law school, Ed, as that makes zero sense.

I hide behind nothing.  I just choose to evaluate that which I can, and which I know.   I admire how much you guys seem to know, especially since you are not in the business.  It's cool.

As for Jon, what he seemed to have missed before were the proper things to evaluate.  His later post was much better, use of GCA buzzwords notwithstanding.

TH

[Tom Huckaby]

Now you're throwing blows for Pebble like Spicoli used to do to protect Madonna.

Riviera simply offers more from a strategic and shot value standpoint over 18 holes than does Pebble, in my opinion.

EXCELLENT - then we are speakng the same language, as you are evaluating what makes the course fun to play.  A difference of opinion is certainly fine, so long as we are assessing the proper things.

I knew I could turn you around.  My fee will be assessed on March 9.

TH

[Matt_Ward]

I'm curious given the comments thus far ...

Clearly some people appreciate PB for the all-world holes it does present but often times fail to give any credence to the fact that there are plenty of mediocre holes present there too.

With Riviera you get proponents who argue the consistency of the design is the better of the two.

You also have the issue of off-course scenery and how many brownie points having the Pacific Ocean provides. Be interesting to wonder if Riviera were simply in "sight" of the PO how people might then evaluate it.

[Andy Troeger]

You'd think from reading some of these comments that Pebble was some architectural goat-ranch. I have to wonder reading some comments from members of this discussion board if people go there determined to be underwhelmed or to find something to complain about. Quite frankly, Pebble's pretty darn strategic on most holes with the small greens with plenty of slope. Its a wonderful example of a course not needing length to challenge all levels of golfers without being overly penal.

I haven't played Riviera so I'm going to avoid any direct comparison, but the only place I've seen that's as good or better (or close to) Pebble Beach is that other course down the street.

Matt,
Its not a FACT that there are plenty of mediocre holes--its your opinion. Pebble does have a few that I'd say are mediocre (meaning average), but I'd say that about every course.

[Matt_Ward]

Andy:

I'm not the first person to state that PB has its share -- some might even say too many -- mediocre type holes. Yes, it's my OPINION -- but what do I know or others on that element.

The issue for PB is that for a course to be thought of as all-world by its strident defenders is how much attention (quite rightly) on the all-world holes and less so on the ones that are at best mediocre -- IN MY OPINION.

[Andy Troeger]

Matt,
Much better   

I don't see this abundance of mediocrity that others do, and from playing there I don't buy the arguments that people give generally. I don't think #1, 12, or 15 are particularly special, but as mentioned I've yet to find a course without a couple mediocre holes.

[Damon Groves]

I take Riviera.

The strategic design elements are better and I am much more inspired by the strategic challenge of a course than the pretty ocean nearby. Is Pebble a spiritual experience? It can be but the six hour round puts a dent in that. Also, if the Pacific Ocean is what Pebble needs to set it apart what does that say about the course. Ballyneal is in the middle of nowhere and it is that aspect of it that makes it a very spiritual experience so a course does not need to be near the ocean to have that element. Riviera's setting I think can be quite spiritual.

Pebble is a great course but I think Riviera is clearly better.

[ed_getka]

Tom,
   Perhaps I misinterpreted, please explain what you mean by "...miss so much".

[Tom Huckaby]

Tom,
   Perhaps I misinterpreted, please explain what you mean by "...miss so much".

He played Pebble and seemed to miss so much of what makes it great. 

NOTE - Jon and I have discussed this quite a bit "off-line" so to speak; so my comments respond far more to the off-line than the on-line.

He's back in line now anyway; as you can see at least he is assessing the proper things.  If he does so and differs in his opinion from mine, that's absolutely fine.  Hey, it's hard to have all things in common with a guy for whom a 315 yard drive is a heeled mis-hit.

Damon Groves: well done, well said.  I rather disagree whole-heartedly with most of your conclusions, but I think your methods are spot on.

TH

[Tom Huckaby]

I'm curious given the comments thus far ...

Clearly some people appreciate PB for the all-world holes it does present but often times fail to give any credence to the fact that there are plenty of mediocre holes present there too.

With Riviera you get proponents who argue the consistency of the design is the better of the two.

You also have the issue of off-course scenery and how many brownie points having the Pacific Ocean provides. Be interesting to wonder if Riviera were simply in "sight" of the PO how people might then evaluate it.

Let's try this again.  Round 365 in Huckaby's Quest to Get People to Understand a Better Way to Evaluate Golf Courses.


If one wants to evaluate design - necessarily the question "how good of a job did the architect do?" - then fine, have at it.  I fail to see what relevance that this has outside of curiousity, study, or if you want to hire someone, but hey, to each his own.  You'd need to know what the site was before a course was there... what environmental or client-enforced hurdles had to be overcome - other factors.  The cool thing is, many here are so into this kinda thing that they CAN effectively assess this.  Very cool.  It's an interesting question.

HOWEVER..... it matters little to 99% of the world's golfers, who just want to know....

Which is the greater golf course?  And then the question is necessarily "which is more fun to play (however one defines that word)?"

In this question, courses are what they are.  Oceans and settings are not moving, and very few play blindfolded.  One can put as much or little weight on whatever factors one wishes, of course.  But in the end it has little to do with "design" or "architecture", which is the realm of the first assessment.

I stay out of the first question.  Not my bag, nor do I have the knowledge to even come close to make such an evaluation.

In the second question, again take my opinion with an ocean of salt given it's based on long-ago memories combined with what I have seen in books, pictures, on TV (in the case of Riviera)... but it's hard for me to see any way in which Riviera comes out on top.  Which once again is no knock on Riviera... you're just trying to make it compete with truly one of the Top 10 courses on this planet.

As I see it, anyway.

TH

[Kalen Braley]

Tom,

You must please refrain from making posts like this...there is too much logic in them.  Don't you know that GCA.com will self-destruct if you keep this up?

Switching gears, I'm curious if any who pick Riveria can point to these several specific examples of strategy and architecture and why its superior to Pebble.  And yes, hole # 10 has been discussed ad nauesam, its a wonderful hole even though I have my own side theory on that one..but I admit its a fantastic hole.

In the meantime I will formulate a case for why I think PB is good and what is unique to it that either can't be found at Riv or is unmatched by it.

[Sean_A]

I'm curious given the comments thus far ...

Clearly some people appreciate PB for the all-world holes it does present but often times fail to give any credence to the fact that there are plenty of mediocre holes present there too.

With Riviera you get proponents who argue the consistency of the design is the better of the two.

You also have the issue of off-course scenery and how many brownie points having the Pacific Ocean provides. Be interesting to wonder if Riviera were simply in "sight" of the PO how people might then evaluate it.

Let's try this again.  Round 365 in Huckaby's Quest to Get People to Understand a Better Way to Evaluate Golf Courses.


If one wants to evaluate design - necessarily the question "how good of a job did the architect do?" - then fine, have at it.  I fail to see what relevance that this has outside of curiousity, study, or if you want to hire someone, but hey, to each his own.  You'd need to know what the site was before a course was there... what environmental or client-enforced hurdles had to be overcome - other factors.  The cool thing is, many here are so into this kinda thing that they CAN effectively assess this.  Very cool.  It's an interesting question.

HOWEVER..... it matters little to 99% of the world's golfers, who just want to know....

Which is the greater golf course?  And then the question is necessarily "which is more fun to play (however one defines that word)?"

In this question, courses are what they are.  Oceans and settings are not moving, and very few play blindfolded.  One can put as much or little weight on whatever factors one wishes, of course.  But in the end it has little to do with "design" or "architecture", which is the realm of the first assessment.

I stay out of the first question.  Not my bag, nor do I have the knowledge to even come close to make such an evaluation.

In the second question, again take my opinion with an ocean of salt given it's based on long-ago memories combined with what I have seen in books, pictures, on TV (in the case of Riviera)... but it's hard for me to see any way in which Riviera comes out on top.  Which once again is no knock on Riviera... you're just trying to make it compete with truly one of the Top 10 courses on this planet.

As I see it, anyway.

TH

AwsHuckster

I agree with you to a certain extent.  However, all courses have one thing in common, the final product.  I personally don't care what issues weren't in the archie's control.  He must take the good with the bad.  The goal remains the same, to sell green fees/memberships.  Nobody (well as you state 99%) wants to hear about how the sun was in his eyes or other excuses - valid or not.  So from this perspective, yes, we certainly can debate the product (and that product which we call a golf course must have an element of architecture which we can either find pleasing, distasteful, great, boring etc etc - no?) that is at hand.  From my perspective, I can readily agree that a course is great, but that doesn't mean I will ever want to return.  There is an awful lot that goes into making a great day out and the architecture is just one piece of the puzzle.

Ciao

[Bob_Huntley]

It is quite remarkable the number of times I hear about the "Six hour round at Pebble Beach." How many of the contributors to this particular thread have even played the course and give me the dates you had a six hour round?

When discussing the merits of the courses, pro and con, let us omit the the stuff about pace of play. Pebble is a public course and Riviera is private, there is going to be a disparity.

Bob

[Tom Huckaby]

Sean.... er, uh, ok.

I have very little clue what any of that meant, but if you agree to a certain extent, well that is progress I am happy to accept.  Kalen seems to be the first who does get this.  So maybe I am up to one and a half....

TH