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Craig Van Egmond

  • Karma: +0/-0
Re: Northern Trust under pressure...
« Reply #175 on: February 28, 2009, 09:35:14 PM »

“That government is best which governs least”

Henry David Thoreau - Civil Disobedience

An aphorism attributed to either Thomas Jefferson or Thomas Paine—“That government is best which governs least”—actually was first found in this essay.[4] Thoreau was paraphrasing the motto of The United States Magazine and Democratic Review: “The best government is that which governs least.”[5]

http://www.bartleby.com/73/753.html


Jeff Goldman

  • Karma: +0/-0
Re: Northern Trust under pressure...
« Reply #176 on: February 28, 2009, 10:32:36 PM »
Shivas, shivas, shivas,

Stop this anti-market communistic blather.  See  http://www.ft.com/cms/s/0/2970532c-0421-11de-845b-000077b07658.html

There's a reason the stuff is valued so low -- it's selling for peanuts.

Folks,

I disagree with those who think we are seeing something that hasn't happened before because we have lost our way, gotten fat, gotten greedy or gotten stupid. The kind of stuff we are seeing now really isn't anything new; it's just that, in my opinion,  the post-war regulatory state managed to ameliorate some of the worst impulses.  Before that, we had panics and deep, deep recessions after the Revolution, in 1830, 1850, a really really bad one around 1873, another one twenty years later, and one 15 years after that.  Although they had various causes, all of these were worse than anything that we have experienced since the depression, most much worse than even the inflation-killer of the 1980s, maybe until now. 
That was one hellacious beaver.

Craig Sweet

  • Karma: +0/-0
Re: Northern Trust under pressure...
« Reply #177 on: March 01, 2009, 12:14:55 AM »
Patrick Mucci...

I agree, the system is broken...

I think we need a Constitutional change to a proportional system of government....it would force politicians to form coalitions....compromise and bipartisanship... and it would lessen the influence of lobbyist and big money.
No one is above the law. LOCK HIM UP!!!

Eric Smith

  • Karma: +0/-0
Re: Northern Trust under pressure...
« Reply #178 on: March 01, 2009, 01:51:39 AM »
FootJoy shut the Brockton plant. 

Street Shoe and Classic lines are no more, get 'em while you can.

My goodness, no more Classics?  That's unbelievable, but these are no ordinary times for sure.

I was a Classics whore when I was GM at the golf course.  Cost less 40% I think was the deal, two per year. 

My buddy used to visit and joked that his dad always told him 'never make a bet with a man wearing leather soled golf shoes.'  Of course he wasn't afraid of my action and usually left with my cash in his pocket.

Lou_Duran

  • Karma: +0/-0
Re: Northern Trust under pressure...
« Reply #179 on: March 01, 2009, 01:55:18 AM »
quote author=Steve Lapper link=topic=38731.msg808935#msg808935 date=1235836400]
I cannot sit here and read this drivel without adding some economical history perspective, the kind that is less driven by party or ideological line, and more strongly rooted in fact and timeline.

If we look back over the last quarter of a decade, as far back as 1980 (early Reagan), the economy was in a recession, led by high unemployment, severe inflation (although abating under Volcker's stern rate medicine), an harmfully strong dollar and the prospect of rising federal deficits. The American consumer did not carry high amount of debt, housing or personal, and saved (even in inflationary times). Money supply, as measured by contemporary metrics was very low (choked by inflation and slow exports).

This was a crisis that provided, in essence, a perfect storm...setting the stage for an unlocking of an enormous monetary and productivity boom that was unleashed with the  Fed easing of the discount rate, M1 & M2 growth, a set of Reagan tax cuts, and market prognosticators (Henry, aka Dr. Doom Kaufman) turning tide to bullishness. The stock market soared, Reagan gave great press and Paul Volcker's war on inflation had worked. Unemployment fell, real & median incomes rose, and productivity began to rise. The cold war was won, globalization of trade flourished. Americans bought homes with 20% or more down financed by local & regional banks.

Throughout the early 80's there was NO large scale securitization instrument markets for debt and little, if any, excess leverage within any financial system, save for a sneaky and ominous trend of specious lending by S&L's, created years back by competition with newly created money-market funds. Free-market de-regulation allowed these S&L's to depart from their original mission, borrow larger sums of $$ and begin OWNING (instead of just lending to) real estate and other tangible assets. Still these were great economic times for our country. The stock market went up and everyone bought new cars and new homes and most, if not all, assets continued to appreciate dramatically. Trees grow, but not to the Ozone layer!

1987 gave us the instantaneous risk adjustment of an over-heated equities market with Black Monday, but the American economy shook it off, led by a sharp uptick led by US consumer spending. Most of our historically close trading partners were not so lucky and fell into sharp recessions. We trudged on, though red ink was beginning to fill the balance sheets of banks and the US Treasury.

Around this time though, US Savings & Loans revealed their toxic pattern of large, highly levered, poorly-collateralized lending practices over the past decade. They had been pushed by regulation over the last decade to consolidate, get larger, ultimately leading to collapse, thus requiring a $170 bailout by the gov't and the establishment of the RTC.

1990 through 1992 serves up a plate of the newly expensive Gulf War, a concurrent oil price shock and marked a period of sharp, but short-lived recession. Unemployment rose, government spending accelerated and Germany & Japan became dominant global trade machines outpacing US growth and competing with the USD for prominence. Budget deficits, mostly due to a bloated defense spending spree grew near exponentially. Our politicians explain it away as the cost of winning the cold war and becoming the world's police force.

1993 sees Clinton/Rubin gets credit for new fiscal discipline, reducing the national budget & trade deficits, adding jobs, and pushing new home construction and ownership. Greenspan lowers rates, re-igniting the capital markets and by 1998 there is a budget surplus (for the first time since 1969), low unemployment, income growth, GDP expansion and savings rates drop nearer to 1% (by 2000). He may have been busy under the Oval Office desk, but the economy flourished.

By 1998, we've stopped savings, begun speculating in equity and housing markets and have the tacit endorsement of the FRB (by Greenspan's easy money). We share a delusional belief that the good times will go on forever. Little worry is ascribed to the now-prescient collapse of LTCM(caused by massive leverage and disconnect of market correlation's). Emerging markets, now a hotbed of capital investment, demonstrate their ability to instantaneously combust and the NY Fed successfully orchestrates a Wall Street-led quasi public-private bailout. Nobody thinks twice about resuming the party. The kool-aid continues to flow freely, and again the $$ spigot is dialed wide open.

  It is right here that the securitization markets for debt begin their exponential growth, further fueling debt expansion (now with other people's money) and we expand the ability of larger financial institutions to take risk by repealing the Glass-Steagall Act, (essentially inviting the larger banks to the party's keg and letting the free-market decide who will make the most coin!). Again, trees don't get to outer space.

The Nasdaq/Internet bubble is but another blip as financial engineers outweigh risk managers and the once provincial and local nature of the US housing market is given the wholesale endorsement by both political parties, the FRB, and the President. Concurrently (as a tonic for the short-shock of 9/11), our government endorse the idea of expanding personal credit and excessive (read: borrowed) consumer spending to lead our economy higher! Most interestingly, median income growth stagnates, becomes the most dichotic between the upper and lower economic strata since the 1920s...hmmmm!!

Market oversight is abandoned and abhorred, accounting standards loosened, and the quest for the holy grail of sequentially higher (albeit specious) earnings becomes the new mantra as we embark on a several trillion-dollar, questionable, war in Iraq. Again, federal deficits soar, the USD tanks but that can't stop the daily fixation on more wealth, little or no savings, and an ever-rising DJIA. Don't forget the then-common(and Presidentially-endorsed) mentality that every red-blooded American should pursue his/her dream of buying a home and has a nearby mortgage-banker with a pal at a GSE to make this a reality. The amount of leverage in the US financial system is nearly 3X it's GDP :o

Onto this shaky mix add the liquid oxygen combustibility of CDOs, CDSs, and the always false premise that housing (the underlying for most all of these derivatives) will go up forever. Allowing these to go on the books of our most critical financial institutions was the directly akin to lighting a fuse to a fiscal neutron bomb. Guess what...it went off and we are now seeing how well we can contain the poisonous radioactivity.

WHAT THE HELL DID ANYONE EXPECT TO HAPPEN :o :o >:(

All the political and ideological bullshit expounded here should take a very long look at their respective parties, their ideologies, and recognize their roles in bringing us to the brink of historic disaster (the edge of the back of one of Cape Kidnapper's cliffside fingers). Both parties have failed us miserably.

All of you spout off about taxes, spending, slanted and false histories and blame and credit, blah..blah...blah...Politicians aren't alone in contributing to this mess. The media has played a large and non-constructive role in this as well and deserve a lambasting. They conveniently go from giddiness and celebrity worship to never-ending gloom and prognostication of fault.

HOWEVER,WE LET IT HAPPEN OURSELVES!!! Pat, Dave, Kalen, Lou, Craig everyone...take some damn responsibility. I know I do. Break this chain of ascribing blame.

We've allowed our collective conscience to take a hiatus in the name of personal gain, greed, avarice and excessive comfort. We went from a nation of strong, often Purtian-like values, to one of weak thought and ignorance of consequence. We have lost our ethical and moral compass.

The only thing worth loudly advocating, IMHO, is a wholesale surge (and then purge) of Congressional reform. Let's use the American spirit and will to demand the very real abolition of lobbying by term limits, federally-financed elections (cheapest government fix I can see), and the end of the seniority system. I didn't vote for either Nancy Pelosi or Mitch McConnell and I resent their ability to dominate the potential legislation for the world they'll leave my daughters. My generation is probably screwed, but theirs doesn't have to be. Let's have legislators who make the office responsible to us, not their financial benefactors (be they corporations, unions, think-tanks, or other political ideologies).

We may not like the medicine we are about to take and it won't taste good, but without some of it (and I don't pretend to sit here and tell anyone what will work and what won't...wtf knows just yet???)  we are doomed to watch this accelerating spiral of deflationary pressure sink us into a morass that might take multiple decades to recover from! Let's stop arguing over what's right and wrong with every bailout and every piece of legislation...they are mostly attempts at short term fixes. Stop worrying over what taxes you will have to pay and start thinking about where this country has to get to. We need real and dramatically different solutions to successfully extract us from this mess.

They won't come from the stale monotony of ideologic bullshit.
[/quote]

Steve Lapper,

Okay, since yours appears to have resonated with some, I'll take a stab at a few things you state.  But at the outset, I am assuming that you are not including your screed as part of the "stale monotony of ideologic bullshit" you alluded to above.

You make a lot of assertions, throw in a few buzz words I haven't heard since B school, and don't really say what the solutions are other than they must be "real and dramatically different".  Is a summary of your summary something to the effect that it is everybody's fault so it is nobody's fault, so quit pointing fingers and get behind the program though we don't know what the program is or whether it can work?

But where to start.  How about at the beginning.  I thought Reagan took office in Jan. 1981 following the disastrous Carter presidency that was accurately caricatured by the misery index.  BTW, by the mid to late 1970s the traditional measurement of money aggregates focusing on 1 and 2 had lost much credibility as a means to control or affect the money suppy.  Was this a gratuitous inclusion to gussy up your piece?

Oh, I bought a home with conventional financing in 1979 and I think I put 10% to 15% down.  Did it again in 1984 with around the same down.  I recall a renovator (Alan Cash) in the 1980s who bought 30+ distressed homes annually, fixed them up, and resold them to fairly modest people with third party financing and little to no money down.  My recollection is that there were a number of federally insured or guaranteed mortgage products that required as little as 3% down.  At times Alan left the buyer complete some of the renovation in exchange for the downpayment.  I didn't know many people with the kind of savings to put 20% down, and I doubt that things were different in NY after Carter.  The bottom line is that your characterization of how Americans bought homes during that time is not very accurate, is it?

You sort of gloss over the S & L mess, and if I am understanding you, suggesting that deregulation may have been the cause of it.  Perhaps you would like to explain disintermediation, why regulation Q was finally killed, and the problem with borrowing short while lending long.  While you are it, why don't you impress your readers with a brief summary of how and why S & Ls were created- like by govenrment to make buying a house easier and more affordable for the masses, how they were pampered and protected from competition from commercial banks, and how when the government could no longer control the flow of money across institutions and borders, it had to find a way- this time with real risk- for the S & L industry to survive.  S & L's got into riskier investments like commercial lending and equity participation to increase earnings in order to stave off insolvency.  It really is much simpler than you are trying to make it.  One can jam a square peg into a round hole only for so long without serious repercussions.  Something about chickens coming home to roost?

As to the1993 timeline and your Clinton/Rubin fiscal austerity, that's simply nonesense.  Did you forget the Clintons' failed attempt to nationalize as much as a third of the economy?  And how many times did Clinton veto welfare reform before he was finally forced to sign it, all along winking to the left that he would change it back in the remaining years of his administration?  Two or three times, right?  Do you think that maybe spending the peace dividend by lopping off nearly one million military personnel might have a little bit to do with this so called austerity?  (No connection at all, of course, to the poor condition Bush found the military and intelligence services when he took office in late Jan. 2001.)  As I recall, the 1994 election did usher the first Republican control of the House in 40 years and a so-called "Contract With America".  Do you suppose that this might have had something to do with the small eventual budget surplus (after segragating the social security surplus) of the latter year of Clinton's second term?  Nah, it was Rubin's genius and Clinton's courage and pragmatism.  Yeah, and you are not a partisan!

NOTE TO BOGEY- I read Laffer's newest book and though he says some nice things about Clinton, he is less complimentary than your report from the recent meeting.

In your discussion on when people stopped saving, 1998 I think you state, did you take into consideration any wealth effect?  Or is savings only the excess of earnings to consumption?  If my total portfolio goes up 10% and I don't add additional cash to it, am I not still 10% better off?  Or conversely during the 1970s, the lost decade of equitities.  Is a 1% savings rate when the market was losing money somehow making people wealthier and more confident?  Do you think that there might be at least a tiny connection between wealth, consumption, consumer confidence and a good economy?

It is my understanding- disclosure: I don't work on the Street nor am I an industry "insider"- that CDSs have been around for some time, and that there are different types.  I've also heard or read somewhere that the only ones that have been in trouble thus far are those tied to subprime and Alt-A mortagages.  If this is true, do you suppose that the nature of the guarantees underlying these mortagages- namely, Fannie's and Freddy's implied U.S. government backing- might be the problem as opposed to securitization as you suggest?

Mr. Lapper, tell me with some specificity how it is that I am to blame?  Did I default in my obligations?   Have I asked you and all other American taxpayers to bail me out?  Have I ever asked the government to subsidize my mortgage so I could buy a house I couldn't afford?  And how is it that by me not ascribing blame going to correct the problem?

A far better solution is for people to identify the bad actors as I have and scream loud and often.  That your prescription is to engage in happy talk, to disregard who's going to pay for all these mistakes, and to shoot blindly as we did in the Great Depression is greatly depressing.  I don't want to wait a decade then have a devastating war to get the economy rolling again.  To be bold and audacious with someone else's money is hardly responsible or honorable.

I am not good with aphorisms or cute little bits of wit, but isn't there one about a frying pan calling a kettle black?  Drivel, BS, etc.  Give me a freaking break!

Boy, I am in a foul mood!

Mike Sweeney,

While I am at it, I could care less who you vote for or who you support.  I am not a Republican- never have been- though I've never voted for a Democrat for national office.  I hope this changes some day, but it won't happen until a candidate moves away from the highly destructive tax and spend, class warfare populism that is the hallmark of FDR's Democrat Party.

Craig Sweet,

If you are going to associate my name to statements or positions, at least have enough respect for yourself if not me to do so with a modicum of honesty.  I never said that 40% of Americans don't pay any taxes.  I specifically said that 40%+ of Americans do not pay FEDERAL INCOME taxes.  That is hardly a myth unless you are suggesting that the IRS is making up the data to exploit little people like you (dig fully intended).

Jim Kennedy,

As you wish.  But to suggest that Republicans are as responsible as Democrats for CRA, Fannie and Freddy, Reno's DoJ going after lenders for not lending in poor neighborhoods, etc. is intellectually dishonest.  If you want to take it personally, so be it.  Contrary to what Mr. Lapper states, and borrowing out of context from AG Holder's admonition on courage, it is time we start identifying the bad actors and their actions clearly and ensure these politicians can't do additional harm.

If it is the "consumer" who is the culprit, then it seems that tightening up credit and jacking up interest rates might be in order- Goodale's conumdrum.  The worst thing we can do is to increase taxes on the productive, kill the energy industry, and grow the least productive sector of the economy, the government at all levels.  This is Obama's plan and I'll be damned if I am going to take it lying down.

Ed Getka,

My reference to Obama's destruction of the oil and gas industry comes from a front page article in the Dallas Morning News this past Friday, and one in the Business section, page 1 of the same edition.  Essentially, in Obama's recently submitted budget he is stripping away so-called tax preferences from the industry including depletion.  The industry says it's dead if the package goes through.  Obama says it is time to go a different direction.  I am sure you can Google the relevant part of the budget proposal for "learning" purposes.

Even if you believe in man-made global warming (by spewing CO2 into the atmosphere) while choosing to disregard that over the last decade world temperatures have decreased slightly at the same time that CO2 concentrations have increased greatly (sort of a reverse cause and effect, wouldn't you think?) is now the time to wreck the industry?  Is decimating the economies of TX, OK, and maybe LA okay when the rest of the country is suffering?  They say that misery loves company.  Or should the residents there be happy with extended unemployment benefits and a moratorium on the foreclosure of their homes?  As Rham might have paraphrased "a crisis is a terrible opportunity to waste".  
« Last Edit: March 01, 2009, 02:06:37 AM by Lou_Duran »

Tony Ristola

  • Karma: +0/-0
Re: Northern Trust under pressure...
« Reply #180 on: March 01, 2009, 05:37:02 AM »
Quote
quote author=Steve Lapper link=topic=38731.msg808935#msg808935 date=1235836400]
I cannot sit here and read this drivel without adding some economical history perspective, the kind that is less driven by party or ideological line, and more strongly rooted in fact and timeline.

If we look back over the last quarter of a decade, as far back as 1980 (early Reagan), the economy was in a recession, led by high unemployment, severe inflation (although abating under Volcker's stern rate medicine), an harmfully strong dollar and the prospect of rising federal deficits. The American consumer did not carry high amount of debt, housing or personal, and saved (even in inflationary times). Money supply, as measured by contemporary metrics was very low (choked by inflation and slow exports).

This was a crisis that provided, in essence, a perfect storm...setting the stage for an unlocking of an enormous monetary and productivity boom that was unleashed with the  Fed easing of the discount rate, M1 & M2 growth, a set of Reagan tax cuts, and market prognosticators (Henry, aka Dr. Doom Kaufman) turning tide to bullishness. The stock market soared, Reagan gave great press and Paul Volcker's war on inflation had worked. Unemployment fell, real & median incomes rose, and productivity began to rise. The cold war was won, globalization of trade flourished. Americans bought homes with 20% or more down financed by local & regional banks.

Throughout the early 80's there was NO large scale securitization instrument markets for debt and little, if any, excess leverage within any financial system, save for a sneaky and ominous trend of specious lending by S&L's, created years back by competition with newly created money-market funds. Free-market de-regulation allowed these S&L's to depart from their original mission, borrow larger sums of $$ and begin OWNING (instead of just lending to) real estate and other tangible assets. Still these were great economic times for our country. The stock market went up and everyone bought new cars and new homes and most, if not all, assets continued to appreciate dramatically. Trees grow, but not to the Ozone layer!

1987 gave us the instantaneous risk adjustment of an over-heated equities market with Black Monday, but the American economy shook it off, led by a sharp uptick led by US consumer spending. Most of our historically close trading partners were not so lucky and fell into sharp recessions. We trudged on, though red ink was beginning to fill the balance sheets of banks and the US Treasury.

Around this time though, US Savings & Loans revealed their toxic pattern of large, highly levered, poorly-collateralized lending practices over the past decade. They had been pushed by regulation over the last decade to consolidate, get larger, ultimately leading to collapse, thus requiring a $170 bailout by the gov't and the establishment of the RTC.

1990 through 1992 serves up a plate of the newly expensive Gulf War, a concurrent oil price shock and marked a period of sharp, but short-lived recession. Unemployment rose, government spending accelerated and Germany & Japan became dominant global trade machines outpacing US growth and competing with the USD for prominence. Budget deficits, mostly due to a bloated defense spending spree grew near exponentially. Our politicians explain it away as the cost of winning the cold war and becoming the world's police force.

1993 sees Clinton/Rubin gets credit for new fiscal discipline, reducing the national budget & trade deficits, adding jobs, and pushing new home construction and ownership. Greenspan lowers rates, re-igniting the capital markets and by 1998 there is a budget surplus (for the first time since 1969), low unemployment, income growth, GDP expansion and savings rates drop nearer to 1% (by 2000). He may have been busy under the Oval Office desk, but the economy flourished.

By 1998, we've stopped savings, begun speculating in equity and housing markets and have the tacit endorsement of the FRB (by Greenspan's easy money). We share a delusional belief that the good times will go on forever. Little worry is ascribed to the now-prescient collapse of LTCM(caused by massive leverage and disconnect of market correlation's). Emerging markets, now a hotbed of capital investment, demonstrate their ability to instantaneously combust and the NY Fed successfully orchestrates a Wall Street-led quasi public-private bailout. Nobody thinks twice about resuming the party. The kool-aid continues to flow freely, and again the $$ spigot is dialed wide open.

  It is right here that the securitization markets for debt begin their exponential growth, further fueling debt expansion (now with other people's money) and we expand the ability of larger financial institutions to take risk by repealing the Glass-Steagall Act, (essentially inviting the larger banks to the party's keg and letting the free-market decide who will make the most coin!). Again, trees don't get to outer space.

The Nasdaq/Internet bubble is but another blip as financial engineers outweigh risk managers and the once provincial and local nature of the US housing market is given the wholesale endorsement by both political parties, the FRB, and the President. Concurrently (as a tonic for the short-shock of 9/11), our government endorse the idea of expanding personal credit and excessive (read: borrowed) consumer spending to lead our economy higher! Most interestingly, median income growth stagnates, becomes the most dichotic between the upper and lower economic strata since the 1920s...hmmmm!!

Market oversight is abandoned and abhorred, accounting standards loosened, and the quest for the holy grail of sequentially higher (albeit specious) earnings becomes the new mantra as we embark on a several trillion-dollar, questionable, war in Iraq. Again, federal deficits soar, the USD tanks but that can't stop the daily fixation on more wealth, little or no savings, and an ever-rising DJIA. Don't forget the then-common(and Presidentially-endorsed) mentality that every red-blooded American should pursue his/her dream of buying a home and has a nearby mortgage-banker with a pal at a GSE to make this a reality. The amount of leverage in the US financial system is nearly 3X it's GDP :o

Onto this shaky mix add the liquid oxygen combustibility of CDOs, CDSs, and the always false premise that housing (the underlying for most all of these derivatives) will go up forever. Allowing these to go on the books of our most critical financial institutions was the directly akin to lighting a fuse to a fiscal neutron bomb. Guess what...it went off and we are now seeing how well we can contain the poisonous radioactivity.

WHAT THE HELL DID ANYONE EXPECT TO HAPPEN :o :o >:(

All the political and ideological bullshit expounded here should take a very long look at their respective parties, their ideologies, and recognize their roles in bringing us to the brink of historic disaster (the edge of the back of one of Cape Kidnapper's cliffside fingers). Both parties have failed us miserably.

All of you spout off about taxes, spending, slanted and false histories and blame and credit, blah..blah...blah...Politicians aren't alone in contributing to this mess. The media has played a large and non-constructive role in this as well and deserve a lambasting. They conveniently go from giddiness and celebrity worship to never-ending gloom and prognostication of fault.

HOWEVER,WE LET IT HAPPEN OURSELVES!!! Pat, Dave, Kalen, Lou, Craig everyone...take some damn responsibility. I know I do. Break this chain of ascribing blame.

We've allowed our collective conscience to take a hiatus in the name of personal gain, greed, avarice and excessive comfort. We went from a nation of strong, often Purtian-like values, to one of weak thought and ignorance of consequence. We have lost our ethical and moral compass.

The only thing worth loudly advocating, IMHO, is a wholesale surge (and then purge) of Congressional reform. Let's use the American spirit and will to demand the very real abolition of lobbying by term limits, federally-financed elections (cheapest government fix I can see), and the end of the seniority system. I didn't vote for either Nancy Pelosi or Mitch McConnell and I resent their ability to dominate the potential legislation for the world they'll leave my daughters. My generation is probably screwed, but theirs doesn't have to be. Let's have legislators who make the office responsible to us, not their financial benefactors (be they corporations, unions, think-tanks, or other political ideologies).

We may not like the medicine we are about to take and it won't taste good, but without some of it (and I don't pretend to sit here and tell anyone what will work and what won't...wtf knows just yet???)  we are doomed to watch this accelerating spiral of deflationary pressure sink us into a morass that might take multiple decades to recover from! Let's stop arguing over what's right and wrong with every bailout and every piece of legislation...they are mostly attempts at short term fixes. Stop worrying over what taxes you will have to pay and start thinking about where this country has to get to. We need real and dramatically different solutions to successfully extract us from this mess.

They won't come from the stale monotony of ideologic bullshit.

Steve Lapper,

Okay, since yours appears to have resonated with some, I'll take a stab at a few things you state.  But at the outset, I am assuming that you are not including your screed as part of the "stale monotony of ideologic bullshit" you alluded to above.

You make a lot of assertions, throw in a few buzz words I haven't heard since B school, and don't really say what the solutions are other than they must be "real and dramatically different".  Is a summary of your summary something to the effect that it is everybody's fault so it is nobody's fault, so quit pointing fingers and get behind the program though we don't know what the program is or whether it can work?

But where to start.  How about at the beginning.  I thought Reagan took office in Jan. 1981 following the disastrous Carter presidency that was accurately caricatured by the misery index.  BTW, by the mid to late 1970s the traditional measurement of money aggregates focusing on 1 and 2 had lost much credibility as a means to control or affect the money suppy.  Was this a gratuitous inclusion to gussy up your piece?

Oh, I bought a home with conventional financing in 1979 and I think I put 10% to 15% down.  Did it again in 1984 with around the same down.  I recall a renovator (Alan Cash) in the 1980s who bought 30+ distressed homes annually, fixed them up, and resold them to fairly modest people with third party financing and little to no money down.  My recollection is that there were a number of federally insured or guaranteed mortgage products that required as little as 3% down.  At times Alan left the buyer complete some of the renovation in exchange for the downpayment.  I didn't know many people with the kind of savings to put 20% down, and I doubt that things were different in NY after Carter.  The bottom line is that your characterization of how Americans bought homes during that time is not very accurate, is it?

You sort of gloss over the S & L mess, and if I am understanding you, suggesting that deregulation may have been the cause of it.  Perhaps you would like to explain disintermediation, why regulation Q was finally killed, and the problem with borrowing short while lending long.  While you are it, why don't you impress your readers with a brief summary of how and why S & Ls were created- like by govenrment to make buying a house easier and more affordable for the masses, how they were pampered and protected from competition from commercial banks, and how when the government could no longer control the flow of money across institutions and borders, it had to find a way- this time with real risk- for the S & L industry to survive.  S & L's got into riskier investments like commercial lending and equity participation to increase earnings in order to stave off insolvency.  It really is much simpler than you are trying to make it.  One can jam a square peg into a round hole only for so long without serious repercussions.  Something about chickens coming home to roost?

As to the1993 timeline and your Clinton/Rubin fiscal austerity, that's simply nonesense.  Did you forget the Clintons' failed attempt to nationalize as much as a third of the economy?  And how many times did Clinton veto welfare reform before he was finally forced to sign it, all along winking to the left that he would change it back in the remaining years of his administration?  Two or three times, right?  Do you think that maybe spending the peace dividend by lopping off nearly one million military personnel might have a little bit to do with this so called austerity?  (No connection at all, of course, to the poor condition Bush found the military and intelligence services when he took office in late Jan. 2001.)  As I recall, the 1994 election did usher the first Republican control of the House in 40 years and a so-called "Contract With America".  Do you suppose that this might have had something to do with the small eventual budget surplus (after segragating the social security surplus) of the latter year of Clinton's second term?  Nah, it was Rubin's genius and Clinton's courage and pragmatism.  Yeah, and you are not a partisan!

NOTE TO BOGEY- I read Laffer's newest book and though he says some nice things about Clinton, he is less complimentary than your report from the recent meeting.

In your discussion on when people stopped saving, 1998 I think you state, did you take into consideration any wealth effect?  Or is savings only the excess of earnings to consumption?  If my total portfolio goes up 10% and I don't add additional cash to it, am I not still 10% better off?  Or conversely during the 1970s, the lost decade of equitities.  Is a 1% savings rate when the market was losing money somehow making people wealthier and more confident?  Do you think that there might be at least a tiny connection between wealth, consumption, consumer confidence and a good economy?

It is my understanding- disclosure: I don't work on the Street nor am I an industry "insider"- that CDSs have been around for some time, and that there are different types.  I've also heard or read somewhere that the only ones that have been in trouble thus far are those tied to subprime and Alt-A mortagages.  If this is true, do you suppose that the nature of the guarantees underlying these mortagages- namely, Fannie's and Freddy's implied U.S. government backing- might be the problem as opposed to securitization as you suggest?

Mr. Lapper, tell me with some specificity how it is that I am to blame?  Did I default in my obligations?   Have I asked you and all other American taxpayers to bail me out?  Have I ever asked the government to subsidize my mortgage so I could buy a house I couldn't afford?  And how is it that by me not ascribing blame going to correct the problem?

A far better solution is for people to identify the bad actors as I have and scream loud and often.  That your prescription is to engage in happy talk, to disregard who's going to pay for all these mistakes, and to shoot blindly as we did in the Great Depression is greatly depressing.  I don't want to wait a decade then have a devastating war to get the economy rolling again.  To be bold and audacious with someone else's money is hardly responsible or honorable.

I am not good with aphorisms or cute little bits of wit, but isn't there one about a frying pan calling a kettle black?  Drivel, BS, etc.  Give me a freaking break!

Boy, I am in a foul mood!

Mike Sweeney,

While I am at it, I could care less who you vote for or who you support.  I am not a Republican- never have been- though I've never voted for a Democrat for national office.  I hope this changes some day, but it won't happen until a candidate moves away from the highly destructive tax and spend, class warfare populism that is the hallmark of FDR's Democrat Party.

Craig Sweet,

If you are going to associate my name to statements or positions, at least have enough respect for yourself if not me to do so with a modicum of honesty.  I never said that 40% of Americans don't pay any taxes.  I specifically said that 40%+ of Americans do not pay FEDERAL INCOME taxes.  That is hardly a myth unless you are suggesting that the IRS is making up the data to exploit little people like you (dig fully intended).

Jim Kennedy,

As you wish.  But to suggest that Republicans are as responsible as Democrats for CRA, Fannie and Freddy, Reno's DoJ going after lenders for not lending in poor neighborhoods, etc. is intellectually dishonest.  If you want to take it personally, so be it.  Contrary to what Mr. Lapper states, and borrowing out of context from AG Holder's admonition on courage, it is time we start identifying the bad actors and their actions clearly and ensure these politicians can't do additional harm.

If it is the "consumer" who is the culprit, then it seems that tightening up credit and jacking up interest rates might be in order- Goodale's conumdrum.  The worst thing we can do is to increase taxes on the productive, kill the energy industry, and grow the least productive sector of the economy, the government at all levels.  This is Obama's plan and I'll be damned if I am going to take it lying down.

Ed Getka,

My reference to Obama's destruction of the oil and gas industry comes from a front page article in the Dallas Morning News this past Friday, and one in the Business section, page 1 of the same edition.  Essentially, in Obama's recently submitted budget he is stripping away so-called tax preferences from the industry including depletion.  The industry says it's dead if the package goes through.  Obama says it is time to go a different direction.  I am sure you can Google the relevant part of the budget proposal for "learning" purposes.

Even if you believe in man-made global warming (by spewing CO2 into the atmosphere) while choosing to disregard that over the last decade world temperatures have decreased slightly at the same time that CO2 concentrations have increased greatly (sort of a reverse cause and effect, wouldn't you think?) is now the time to wreck the industry?  Is decimating the economies of TX, OK, and maybe LA okay when the rest of the country is suffering?  They say that misery loves company.  Or should the residents there be happy with extended unemployment benefits and a moratorium on the foreclosure of their homes?  As Rham might have paraphrased "a crisis is a terrible opportunity to waste".  

Hear hear!

« Last Edit: March 01, 2009, 05:58:23 AM by Tony Ristola »

Mike Sweeney

Re: Northern Trust under pressure...
« Reply #181 on: March 01, 2009, 06:55:37 AM »
Shivas, shivas, shivas,

Stop this anti-market communistic blather.  See  http://www.ft.com/cms/s/0/2970532c-0421-11de-845b-000077b07658.html

There's a reason the stuff is valued so low -- it's selling for peanuts.

Folks,

I disagree with those who think we are seeing something that hasn't happened before because we have lost our way, gotten fat, gotten greedy or gotten stupid. The kind of stuff we are seeing now really isn't anything new; it's just that, in my opinion,  the post-war regulatory state managed to ameliorate some of the worst impulses.  Before that, we had panics and deep, deep recessions after the Revolution, in 1830, 1850, a really really bad one around 1873, another one twenty years later, and one 15 years after that.  Although they had various causes, all of these were worse than anything that we have experienced since the depression, most much worse than even the inflation-killer of the 1980s, maybe until now. 

I am not sure how many of you have met Jeff. Unlike me he actually thinks about this stuff and tries to understand.

Jeff Goldman for Secretary of the Treasury because Geithner is over his head and I hope that Volcker and Sumners are the real policy guys and Geithner is just a buts and bolts guy.

Craig Sweet

  • Karma: +0/-0
Re: Northern Trust under pressure...
« Reply #182 on: March 01, 2009, 11:38:19 AM »
Lou...according to the Tax Foundation...and I assume they are the organization responsible for the report often cited to bolster your argument....97% of those paying no federal income tax have income between $1-$19,999.....and most of those people are single parent filers...

Do you find it offensive that someone raising a kid on less than $20,000 pre tax dollars, gets a refund?

It is an embarrassment that in a country like America a business like Walmart can pay someone $6.95 cents per hour, provide zero health care benefits, and expect everyone else to pay the cost of raising that child via child care assistance, CHIP, food stamps, etc.....while they have a gross profit of over $95 billion dollars...
No one is above the law. LOCK HIM UP!!!

Steve Lapper

  • Karma: +0/-0
Re: Northern Trust under pressure...
« Reply #183 on: March 01, 2009, 11:53:24 AM »
Lou,

   While previously averred to going "tit-for-tat" on any of this, I'll limit myself to addressing your scathing and consistently stale pseudo-libertarian rant, revisionist history and hollow insinuations.

   I chose a timeline to begin my post with the nation's last bout of hyper-inflation solely because it sets the stage for contemporary and relevant history. Having closely studied economic history, most schools (C.B.S, Wharton and U. of Chicago) find the Volcker Fed to be beginning of successfully proactive Federal Reserve Bank and the inception of aggressive monetary policy*. Of course you can start as far back as Hamilton, but I'm afraid it won't provide much basis for how to study our present predicament, will it?  Sorry to disappoint your conspiratorial fear, but there wasn't an a partisan purpose or ideological slant involved.

   If you read closely, I cited the macro trends and outcomes of this era without ascribing personal or political blame. Tough as that is for you to stomach, my attempt to relate this history was designed as a lesson for how we fused the convenience of consumer lust, regulatory malfeasance, and moral ignorance
into a polymer of avarice and stupidity. If that offends you, then I'm sorry, but so be it.

    You say I misrepresent both the characterization of late century American home buying and the concurrent S&L crisis, however you so conveniently spin aside the much larger point that MOST home were bought with lower LTV's and there was NO evidence of questionable subprime lending standards. Surely, good credits could do much better, but they were the exception, not the rule.

  Trying to keep things relatively brief and concise may have caused me to "gloss" over the S&L crisis, but the real and indisputable fact was that S&L's were designed to remain local lenders (yes, free from larger commercial banks) and chartered to make local residential loans. They were indeed favored by statute and worked as designed to foster steady, sustainable growth up through the late 1960's and early 1970s. When the financial engineering of the times created better yielding money-market accounts, the S&L's found themselves at a competitive disadvantage and lobbied Congress to deregulate them so they could pursue higher earnings.......this HAS NOTHING TO DO WITH THEIR SOLVENCY....only their GREED. Banks don't become insolvent when making smaller lower-yielding profits, they become insolvent when pursuing riskier (re: higher-yielding) returns where the risk exceeds their capital. Stockholders always have the choice of selling and resetting the bank's equity values lower, however while a well-run, risk-averse institution might not get a market higher-valuation, they do remain solvent!!! Your logic is convoluted and deeply-flawed. Why do smaller sub-regional(and highly solvent) banks of who have followed prudent lending paths and studiously avoided yield-chasing still exist (and flourish regardless of abnormally low valuations)? Boring and consistent yes, but solvent and alive.

  Please try to tell everyone here why consistent and patterned federal deregulation of allowing banks (eventually all banks from local-to-I-bank-to money-center) to take riskier (high-yielding, MBS, CDO, CLO, CDS) bets with balance sheet leverage hasn't played THE MAJOR ROLE in getting us to today's Zombieville. Please try to tell us why the bank lobby is the 2nd largest lobby (only behind Defense) in Washington? Try explaining that fact away. We are all in terrible need of a good spin job.

  Please reread my Clinton paragraph again. Contemporary political and economic history, right or wrong, has given his administration credit for the financial austerity and surplus of the late 1990s. I'm not really much of Hill-Billy fan (sorry to deflate your accusation of my partisan leanings) and I do believe the House Republicans did a pretty good, albeit short-timed, job that deserves considerable credit, but they didn't define the administration, Clinton did, good or bad. Other than his early and failed attempt at health care reform, it's delusional to believe he "attempted to nationalize a third of the economy." Trimming the proportionally large military played a role in helping balance the budget (don't forget we got several hundred thousand cops on our streets in return), but that had nothing to do with 9/11. Clinton's lack of focus on coordinated national intelligence, his ignorance of their internal turf wars over communication and sharing of resources was a definite contributor, but military cuts played no role. His lack of focus on Al-Qaeda was the defining mistake. In fact, I just hung-up from a close friend who was a top three official at D.o.D intelligence under Clinton (through 2001-02) and he confirms this. He credits GWB with finally coordinated the resources. I agree. Of course, I don't see how any of this should dissuade you from having your arched-brow view conspiracy point-of-view you so regularly print here.

  Ahhh, that leaves the wealth effect. Of course, you (and Alan Greenspan) seem to have bought wholesale into this wonderful pile of theoretical doo-doo. Surely, ties between wealth, consumption, consumer confidence help define a good economy, but when historic and well-studied economic statistics (and the historic ratios between them) like median-income, median home prices, housing starts, nearly every debt indicator and irresponsible monetary policy all begin to skew heavily, reach extremes and appear unsustainable, are they "supporting" a good and sustainable economy?? Where is your "wealth effect" a quantifiable economic data point? Is it the price of the DJIA? Is it market-value of your property? Is it real or illusory? Might this be part of the now famous "irrational exuberance" (but who am I to prick a party bubble) Humphrey-Hawkins testimony? I think it might be finally safe to say that Ayn Rand's economic views have been proven inept.

  Funny thing, most of these economic metrics and voodoo numbers....they all can be bent and shaped to fit whatever those in power want them to support. Interestingly, most all of them are trailing, not leading and very few are willing to pay much attention when they leave historic ranges and appear unsustainable and euphoric.

  Given your disclaimer (and mine that I did spend plenty of time on LaSalle & Wall St's), I'll provide you a short understanding of the CDS market. The concept of swaps includes all kinds of risk and/or obligation transfer. Conventional swaps are constructively used every day for liquidity and risk purposes with no fundamental threat to(or from) institutional solvency. Credit Default Swaps (CDS) can and are written and bought on ANY credit, (national sovereignties, individual corporate debt of ALL ratings, bank debt, ALL types of mortgage and real estate debt, as well as one other already highly-levered instruments (CDOs,CDO squareds, CLOs, etc.) ). They are instruments that guarantee performance and price against default. They have mushroomed over the past 6 years into a market place with notional value of near $3 TRILLION, roughly 4X their underlying security). This market is totally unregulated and ill-defined, thanks to Phil & Wendy Gramm. Rating agencies blessed the likes of AIG, Lehman, Bear Stearns, Merrill, Citi, GS, JPM, GE Credit, and many more with A-to-AAA ratings permitting these companies to underwrite and customize risk assumptions. They did no real risk work, other than to plug in short-lived (often only 10-20yr histories) faulty math models to reach these bogus ratings, With such blessings, firms could then sell them to all kinds of financial institutions, thus transferring potential time bombs onto otherwise cleaner balance sheets. One might liken this to selling a glittery Trojan Horse, an apparently valuable polished gem with a hidden and almost dormant Ebola virus beneath the facade. This is what sits on the balance sheets of Citi, BAC, GE and many other financial. See the embedded Nocera piece in Saturday's NYT for a clear understanding of the AIG role (I posted this earlier on this thread).

  The implied backing of the GSEs by the US Gov't has relatively nothing to do with this risk problem. Their default rate models and concentration risks, along with generously supplied leverage is near containable relative to the CDS risk I've described. But again, don't let that stop you from spinning a good tale!

  Lastly, you ask how did you (and I) contribute to this mess. We all sat on our hands willingly allowing the bubble to build while practicing partisan politics. We tacitly endorsed the status quo and did so with little thought as to the longer-term consequence. Some of us continued our conspicuous consumption and rejection of the more somber values that founded this great country. We elected politicians whose personal gain was more important than prudently securing our future. We became a nation of debt and leverage. We never really questioned the overheated housing bubble and never called on our regulators to clean up the graft and greed of our marketplaces. We supported a unchecked free-market and are now paying the price for our moral laziness.

 You, Lou, seem to think the solution is to "identify the bad actors and scream loud and often." Other than trying to take back our legislative branch and eliminate the effects of narrow-minded lobbying, what gain will come of this??? Please tell us!!! Okay, the GSEs did bad, Wall Street did bad, the auto manufacturers did wrong, the national home builders and mortgage lenders acted poorly, the retailers sold us false dreams....yada..yada... Okay, you found the bad actors..now what? What were the "good" ones doing that didn't relate or depend on the others for some creation of wealth?? Get real, wake up and smell the coffee.

WHAT GOOD IS GOING TO COME OF ASCRIBING BLAME?????? That is drivel and ideological BS in my book.

You "don't want to wait a decade for a war, shoot blindly like the Great Depression, be bold or audacious with taxpayer money,..." Too late for that now buddy. We aren't in your run-of-the-mill, every other decade cyclical recession or slowdown. This is a viscous deflationary spiral and might well be both epochal and a paradigm shift.. It will likely be very prolonged and much closer to a instantaneous depression than not. Go and study the ruinous effects of a massive deflation, I dare you. Try to tell any of us how just blaming the bad guys and not spending will rescue us from such a spiral. Again, I dare you. Yours is an ABSOLUTELY EMPTY STRATEGY! We are in a royal GLOBAL shit storm and we need to examine (and maybe  even try) every possible creative solution. We need to be bold, find all the ways to create jobs, and think outside the stale box that put us here.

  I'm a registered independent and not a fan of either political party, but I'll get behind the Volkers and Summers and Stiglitzs before I'll trust the Friedmans, Famas and other Chicagoists right now. I despise Reid, Pelosi, Shumer, Dodd,McConnell, Cantor, Kyle. Rush, DeMint and Bunning. They are all blowhards!!! I don't believe in Ron Paul either. I'll vote for Mike or Arnold before I vote for Jon or Newt.

   I want Obama to succeed and I don't care about the bullshit tags of "socialism or "federalization." I don't believe anyone in his administration wants to defeat capitalism or permanently nationalize business, but given the  depths of the abyss which the laissez-faire practices of the past few decades have left us headed, I'd prefer their action over inaction. Our markets will eventually stabilize and recover, the only question is that of timing.

  Like I said before, I really only care about what this country will hold for my little girls. Our generation (I'm 51) is likely screwed for a good long time. History, if ignored (and we have), always repeats itself. I don't know your definition, but that's far from happy talk in my dictionary and most other rational people I know.

   *Btw...It was exactly during the late 1970s and then into the 80's that M1 & M2 were extremely relevant indicators of money supply and monetary policy maneuvers by the Fed. You are just way off base suggesting otherwise.

Off to hit balls before the snows of this evening.
« Last Edit: March 01, 2009, 03:09:13 PM by Steve Lapper »
The conventional view serves to protect us from the painful job of thinking."--John Kenneth Galbraith

Patrick_Mucci

Re: Northern Trust under pressure...
« Reply #184 on: March 01, 2009, 11:57:14 AM »
Patrick Mucci...

I agree, the system is broken...

I think we need a Constitutional change to a proportional system of government....it would force politicians to form coalitions....compromise and bipartisanship... and it would lessen the influence of lobbyist and big money.


I don't think we should amend the Constititution, it's not the constitution that's caused these problems.

At one point I thought that a third or fourth political party might be the answer, but, I don't know that a third party could get the necessary traction.

It would seem that a grass roots effort, a cleansing of government, one starting at the municipal level might work.  Then, I realized that government is a bifurcated instrument, with elected officials who come and go every two, four and six years, working with a permanent bureaucracy who never leave.  Both play a meaningful part in shaping and controlling  our destiny.

Then I thought about successful companies that get acquired and fail.
They sometimes fail because they go from entepreneurially driven, to manage driven entities.

Maybe part of the problem is that Government has gotten to big for any one person or small group of individuals to guide and manage.

Perhaps the answer lies in retroceding a good deal of the authority back to the states and from the states back to the counties and from the counties back to the municipalities.  Obviously, as the issues are larger, they become the domain of the larger Government.
The Constitution provides for this in specific terms, so where did we go wrong.

Imagine if tomorrow, retroactive to 01-01-09 individuals, trusts, estates and corporations all paid a flat tax of 10 % with a State tax of a flat 5 %.   No deductions, no nothing.   The governments would save BILLIONS in admin costs.  The system would be streamlined, there would be NO moving parts.

Line 1  Gross earnings.
Line 2  X .10
Line 3  Tax due

I know that accountants and tax lawyers would oppose a simple, flat tax, but, it's probably in America's and American's best interest.

Just a thought.

While you've had a bad experience in Montana with term limits, I'm an advocate of consecutive term limits.  If their constituency thinks they're really a good public servant, they can vote them back into office after a term hiatus.

Campaign reform needs to go hand in hand with term limits.

We need to get the MOST QUALIFIED PERSON FOR THE JOB in office, not a given party's politically compromised choice, or a multi-billionairre who can fund his run.

The problem is, those IN OFFICE make up the rules and I doubt that they will be the ones to craft reform.  Hence, I believe it must start with grass roots ballot initiatives/referendums.

End of rant. ;D


Voytek Wilczak

  • Karma: +0/-0
Re: Northern Trust under pressure...
« Reply #185 on: March 01, 2009, 12:02:56 PM »
GCA can offer so much more than golf insight. I am thankful for that because the analysis offered in this thread is much better than the media are offering.

I just want to make one point, because to me things should not be too complicated.

We need to create jobs to keep our economy going. We can't be just consuming, because that's unsustainable.

But we have exported all of our manufacturing jobs to China, India and Korea. They built those jobs on OUR know-how, stuff that in many cases we invented HERE.

We need to become manufacturers again, not just consumers. We need to spend the stimulus on technological innovation and manufacturing.

In my opinion, Obama socialist plan of taxing the small business and the "wealthy", coupled with the global systemic financial crisis, is a 100% assurance that the US will join the ranks of struggling and poor nations for my lifetime (and I am 50).

What is happening is insane.


Craig Sweet

  • Karma: +0/-0
Re: Northern Trust under pressure...
« Reply #186 on: March 01, 2009, 12:08:12 PM »
Patrick...

You are truly "on to something" advocating for a third and fourth party...but as you pointed out, it is difficult for "minor" parties to gain traction....lets ignore for a minute the Presidential Debate commission and that travesty....the reality is, the two parties enjoy the system they have created....whereas a proportional system....just about all democratic societies are proportional, not majority take all systems...would give traction to these minor parties, force the Democrats and the Republicans to form coalitions to govern, create a different relationship between lobbyist and politician, and, with some real campaign finance reform,  we could really have something here...I think proportional systems tend to have some built in "term limiting" because politicians are less apt to become "entrenched" in a seniority system...
No one is above the law. LOCK HIM UP!!!

Patrick_Mucci

Re: Northern Trust under pressure...
« Reply #187 on: March 01, 2009, 12:09:27 PM »

Lou...according to the Tax Foundation...and I assume they are the organization responsible for the report often cited to bolster your argument....97% of those paying no federal income tax have income between $1-$19,999.....and most of those people are single parent filers...

Do you find it offensive that someone raising a kid on less than $20,000 pre tax dollars, gets a refund?

It is an embarrassment that in a country like America a business like Walmart can pay someone $6.95 cents per hour, provide zero health care benefits, and expect everyone else to pay the cost of raising that child via child care assistance, CHIP, food stamps, etc.....while they have a gross profit of over $95 billion dollars...

Craig,

Here's the dilema.

Without Wal-Mart, those same people making between $ 1 and $ 19,999 wouldn't be able to afford many of the necessities of life.

Wal-Mart enables them to purchase those goods at the absolutely lowest cost.

As to the profit, they pay taxes on that profit, there's NO getting around that.   So, Local, State and the Federal governments benefit from that profit, they get their share.

In addition, the pension and investment funds that own Wal-Mart stock get the benefit in dividends or higher stock prices or both.

Wal-Mart is a product of our government's failed trade treaties/policies.

Power corrupts and absolute power corrupts absolutely, not just in government, but in business and in life.

Don't rail at Wal-Mart, analyze how they got to where they are and what made them successful with the American public.


Craig Sweet

  • Karma: +0/-0
Re: Northern Trust under pressure...
« Reply #188 on: March 01, 2009, 12:12:07 PM »
Voytek...

Please Google small business and Obama's stimulus plan...the benefits in that plan for small business are pretty darn good.

Here is one article:
http://www.iht.com/articles/2008/02/13/business/stimulus.php
No one is above the law. LOCK HIM UP!!!

Patrick_Mucci

Re: Northern Trust under pressure...
« Reply #189 on: March 01, 2009, 12:16:16 PM »
Craig,

I think your idea of a proportional government would only continue business as usual in Washington.

Namely, you approve my plan, and I'll approve your plan.

The two party system has failed us.

Or, perhaps we've failed ourselves.

Ask yourself, would you like to run for President and see yourself, your immediate and extended family, your friends and acquaintances villified by the media.

I believe in shining the light of scrutiny on candidates, but, we've taken it to ridiculous proportions.

I don't care if a Candidate had an affair, if he or she is a great candidate, intelligent and capable of performing the task of the office, ELECT them, don't villify them.

But, again, that's the media.

The media could provide a great service for the country, unfortunately, they too have many agendas.  One of which is sensationalism/profit, which is OK provided they act responsibly and are accountable, which, is rarely going to happen[/b]

Craig Sweet

  • Karma: +0/-0
Re: Northern Trust under pressure...
« Reply #190 on: March 01, 2009, 12:19:46 PM »
Patrick...

I am not necessarily anti Walmart...I was merely using them as an example of a business paying someone a wage that requires society to pick up the tab for many of the necessities that allow that person to have the job in the first place...in essence, that job is state subsidized....oh my god!!! Socialism???? ;)

My experience with this....I know when I paid my employees more money they had money to spend on other things besides  paying the phone bill, the rent, buying food and gas, etc...

No one is above the law. LOCK HIM UP!!!

Voytek Wilczak

  • Karma: +0/-0
Re: Northern Trust under pressure...
« Reply #191 on: March 01, 2009, 12:20:18 PM »
Voytek...

Please Google small business and Obama's stimulus plan...the benefits in that plan for small business are pretty darn good.

Here is one article:
http://www.iht.com/articles/2008/02/13/business/stimulus.php

Craig:

Darn good is not enough.

It must be an all-out support of industry.

Meaning no spending on universal healthcare or other social experiments that Pelosi was planning for years.

To be fair and balanced...(:-)), I'd even cut the military spending in order to give incentive to business to create jobs here.

Let the EU fight in Afghanistan.

You think Sarko or Merkel will agree to that?

Don_Mahaffey

Re: Northern Trust under pressure...
« Reply #192 on: March 01, 2009, 12:25:06 PM »
Patrick...

I am not necessarily anti Walmart...I was merely using them as an example of a business paying someone a wage that requires society to pick up the tab for many of the necessities that allow that person to have the job in the first place...in essence, that job is state subsidized....oh my god!!! Socialism???? ;)

My experience with this....I know when I paid my employees more money they had money to spend on other things besides  paying the phone bill, the rent, buying food and gas, etc...



Craig,
You think Walmart would rather use it's tax dollars to raise wages? I bet they would, higher wages means more competition for jobs and better employees...for the most part. Cut taxes and raise wages...are you OK with that?

Craig Sweet

  • Karma: +0/-0
Re: Northern Trust under pressure...
« Reply #193 on: March 01, 2009, 12:26:02 PM »
Shivas...

I am not sure what portion of the stimulus plan you consider a charity?  My understanding is the stimulus plan calls for a reduction in payroll taxes....

However, I don't need to tell you, the federal budget/tax system is chuck full of "charity" giving that cuts across all socio-economic levels....
No one is above the law. LOCK HIM UP!!!

J_ Crisham

  • Karma: +0/-0
Re: Northern Trust under pressure...
« Reply #194 on: March 01, 2009, 12:26:10 PM »




When you walk past a candy store, and they're giving out free samples, they don't call it "refunds."  They call it free samples.


Dave,  It's all about perspective-I view the candy give away as my stimulus plan. ;)    Hope to see you on the links soon,   Jack

Craig Sweet

  • Karma: +0/-0
Re: Northern Trust under pressure...
« Reply #195 on: March 01, 2009, 12:29:18 PM »
Voytek...

Health care for everyone is NOT a social experiment.  It is working just fine in most industrial countries...the current system in America...the system that puts profit and costs ahead of wellness, IS A SOCIAL experiment...and it is failing miserably for all but the very poor and the wealthy. 

Once again...I ask that you google the stimulus plan and see the support for small business....
No one is above the law. LOCK HIM UP!!!

Craig Sweet

  • Karma: +0/-0
Re: Northern Trust under pressure...
« Reply #196 on: March 01, 2009, 12:35:12 PM »
Patrick...

Having served in a publicly elected position I know first hand how the media treats politicians....and I know first hand how narrow minded bigots feel they are protected by free speech as they slander you...

You are correct...it keeps many good people out of public service.


Don...

I do not think businesses should get a tax cut to provide a job...I think it is in their best interest to pay people more money..you know how that is...a good hand is worth the extra money.........but perhaps a tax credit for providing insurance or child care assistance is appropriate.
No one is above the law. LOCK HIM UP!!!

Voytek Wilczak

  • Karma: +0/-0
Re: Northern Trust under pressure...
« Reply #197 on: March 01, 2009, 12:35:57 PM »
Voytek...
Once again...I ask that you google the stimulus plan and see the support for small business....

Craig:

I hear you.

But the plan that has provisions for incentives to the small business AND the universal healthcare (plus all the other spending) at the same time is not sound.

You need to transform America into a manufacturing and a prosperous country BEFORE you do Universal Healthcare.

Trying to do BOTH at the same time, at the time of crisis and global competitiosn will be ultimately disastrous, and something I cannot agree with.

Patrick_Mucci

Re: Northern Trust under pressure...
« Reply #198 on: March 01, 2009, 12:40:54 PM »
Craig,

I don't know of one small business in my community or local region that will benefit, substantively, from the stimulus plan.

As much as I like watching the news channels, they continue to be negative and aren't doing much to inspire consumer confidence.

While some discourage it, I'm a believer in buying "American"
We've got to pull ourselves up by the bootstraps.

I know one thing.

Buying "American" isn't going to hurt the country or our citizens.
« Last Edit: March 01, 2009, 12:43:40 PM by Patrick_Mucci »

Craig Sweet

  • Karma: +0/-0
Re: Northern Trust under pressure...
« Reply #199 on: March 01, 2009, 12:42:27 PM »
Voytek...

I agree..we need to get America back to work..we need to bring back "Made in America"

You don't think the lack of a universal health care plan puts us at a disadvantage with other countries?  Personally, I'm a single payer advocate...and simply expanding Medicare might be the easiest and cheapest.
No one is above the law. LOCK HIM UP!!!

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