[Mark Bourgeois]

Thanks, Paul. Interesting to see the greens description in concert with the reference to Colt.

Wonder if his "consulting" involved telling Aber to flatten the greens!

How does the timing of Addington's construction relate to the Eden? This could support the contention that MacK had a big hand in that course - that plus the Mac-like controversy surrounding the Eden at its opening.

Sean and Paul, I agree it looks very much like a green, but IMHO so far no explanations any of us have put forth resonate, leading us back to the simplest answer, which is that, all appearances to the contrary, that never was a hole or intended component of the course.

I guess one other possibility is property acquisition after construction enabling a new routing and the abandonment of this "hole."

Paul given your post indicating which greens were present from the start, is this at all possible?

Mark

[Thomas MacWood]

As far was Colt softening Abercromby's contours, if anything it was probably the other way around. Darwin was very critical of the mountains in the greens at St. Georges Hill (which were eventually softened). I don't believe Mackenzie had anything to do with Eden, I think if he had there would be some written record of it, most certainly Mackenzie would have made note of his involvement.

[Mark Bourgeois]

Tom

What was the timing of construction of the two courses?

Regarding Colt and greens, I wasn't thinking of St Georges Hill but Colt's writings on green contours.

But of course you could be right.

Not to take this off track, but comparing what Colt wrote in, was it 1906 and 1912, regarding greens and then reading accounts of what he produced at Eden and SGH made me wonder if Colt's views on green contours were influenced by Mac.

Any thoughts on whether Colt's greens went from tamer to wilder (not nec from tame to wild, just less tame), Paul and Tom? Is there any support for the conjecture?

Mark

[Paul_Turner]

Oh bloody hell, somehow I knew those quotes would end up with Mack and the Eden  

The quotes most likely reflect Darwin's taste.

I've read a 1920s article where Mackenzie lambasts wild/freak greens!

Mark

I think Colt definitely built more contour early on, particularly pre WW1.  Take the continent, there were some strong contours in the greens at St Cloud (still there partly on some greens).  Royal Zoute has some too (most notably the 18th).  In contrast, the greens in Holland, which were all late 1920s, are all flatter.


Back to the photos:

I don't believe that mystery green was a practice green so it should have been part of the course, these photos are from around 1913.  When did clubs start adding practice putting greens?

Tom

I knew that the 1st green at SGH was moved because of severity in the 1920s and I think the 13th green had a tier that was removed early on....do you know any more details?

[Thomas MacWood]

Addington-Old opened in 1914, I think. Darwin first wrote about St. Georges Hill in Nov 1912, but I don't think the course formally opened until Oct 1913. In the 1913 article Darwin brought up the question of the greens, in a most diplomatic way I might add. In April 1914 they held the London Foursomes at StGH. Darwin wrote, "It may be frankly admitted that this used to occur a good deal too often [hitting a poor approach putt and leaving your partner with a most difficult two putt], but in the past few months the green committee, with Mr. Colt to help them, have attacked the problem of smoothing out some of the too emphatic wrinkles on their greens with remarkable energy and success."

The second and 12th greens were given as prime examples.

[Paul_Turner]

Thanks Tom that's great.

I can imagine SGH being a bit of a handful with wild greens, the rough terrain and many raised green sites.

[Tony_Muldoon]

Of course I went but....I'd be reluctant to conclude anything from what I saw.

From the ledge



The ledge is orientated like a crescent. Following the natural terrain of pointing in two directions at once?





This is the only Pine I could find near where that golfer in the small picture is hitting from – there’s nothing that looks like a teeing ground.


The shot from there is severely uphill.







In the area of the other green some clearing has taken place in the last couple of winters. But unless it’s a punchbowl I couldn’t say what I was looking at as there’s a lot of woodchip and broken ground.







There isn’t a strand of pines as per the photo to help you get your directions ,  it does thin out a bit behind the two greens but again some clearing has taken place.


The mystery continues

[Tony_Muldoon]

It was a beautiful evening to play golf and the course conditioning contiues to improve. 

[Tony_Muldoon]

This is at the bottom of the hill on the left hand side of 16.  Looks like they cut back some gorse and found this – I don’t remember it.   I hope they do restore it as a gathering type bunker. It will be blind and catch anyone who hits too much draw.




As you can see from the above pictures the Heather is doing very nicely and they are replanting areas of it


However I just don’t get this.






They are successfully encouraging heather all around the ledge.  I thought the only way to play was to hit a long iron and let the ball run onto it. Not possible now. So if you fancy playing off it you have to take a blind aerial approach which last Wednesday was very hard to judge as the wind whistles up that fairway.

[Sean_A]

Paul

I have come across some writings of F Pennink, a very knowledgeable man in golf and architecture from the 30's to the 70's.  He claims that the club was going to place the clubhouse where the 1st green now rests.  It makes a lot of sense from the point of view for the opening hole playing away and the closing hole coming in under the clubhouse. 

Ciao

[Neil_Crafter]

Just found this photograph on English Heritage's National Monuments Record - Viewfinder website. Its a very interesting aerial showing the Addington course being gradually overrun by housing, dating from 1947. I don't know much about the demise of the New course, perhaps someone could add something about it.

I know its really nothing to do with the mystery green but it seemed a nice spot to put the photo.

On the website there are also some nice photos of Rye from the 1930's if anybody is interested, plus a map of the links from that time.
Neil

[Tony_Muldoon]

Neil that's an amazing find.  Until now the only visual evidence of what the course looked like at all was this, from Wethered and Simpson.




this current aerial might help us place the clubhouse on yours.

[Neil_Crafter]

Tony
I've got the S&W book so I was familiar with Simpson's sketch of it. Glad the aerial seems to be one that people haven't seen before. The NMR at Swindon is likely I suspect to have all sorts of old aerials for who knows what courses. Could be a treasure trove - could also be a dud.

I'm not sure where your aerial sits in relation to the one I posted. You'll have to explain.
cheers Neil

[Thomas MacWood]

The way I understand it there was a housing shortage at the close of WWII (largely as a result of the Blitz). Parliament passed the Housing Act of 1944 too meet the demand quickly. Part of the plan involved the infamous prefabs that were ultimately built on the course. Addington tried to fight it in court, I know Darwin testified, but unfortunately they lost.

[Paul_Turner]

Tony

Thanks so much for getting out there and taking these photos..I can't make out a green but it is intriguing!

Sean
I've just read through a B Darwin 1914 review of the course and the current 5th was the starting hole so the order was 5-18, 1-4     (I knew they played this order at one point but didn't know it was the original).  So it does seem that the current 1st wasn't added later as I guessed.

Neil

Great pic...it looks like the houses follow the fairway clearings.

[Neil_Crafter]

Paul
I think its interesting too how they followed the fairway lines with the new houses and kept the treed areas intact. Do these areas survive today?

Tom
Were all these houses prefabs?

Neil

[Scott Warren]

I showed this thread to an Addington member, and his suggestion was that what is tagged as the mystery green is in fact the 12th green, and it's the green to the right that has disappeared. I must admit that was my first thought before I saw how the pic was tagged.

Did this seem possible or likely to anyone else?

If it is, the green in question is very close to if not on the current 13th tee.

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