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brad_miller

  • Karma: +0/-0
Best Greens-- Modern Courses
« on: May 26, 2002, 03:51:25 PM »
T Paul posted that there is "just something different" about the green coutours at #6 NGLA, what modern courses have the most interesting (and fun to play) internal coutours. (I believe the same can be said for many of Maxwell's greens)

Could it be the Press Maxwell 9 holes at Prairie Dunes, circ. 1956-57.... anything since WWII
« Last Edit: December 31, 1969, 07:00:00 PM by 1056376800 »

GeoffreyC

Re: Best Greens-- Modern Courses
« Reply #1 on: May 26, 2002, 03:55:58 PM »
Inniscrone
Rustic Canyon
« Last Edit: December 31, 1969, 07:00:00 PM by 1056376800 »

Don_Mahaffey

Re: Best Greens-- Modern Courses
« Reply #2 on: May 26, 2002, 05:00:53 PM »
Apache Stronghold

Rustic Canyon
« Last Edit: December 31, 1969, 07:00:00 PM by 1056376800 »

Jeff_Stettner

Re: Best Greens-- Modern Courses
« Reply #3 on: May 26, 2002, 05:16:40 PM »
Chechesee
« Last Edit: December 31, 1969, 07:00:00 PM by 1056376800 »

A_Clay_Man

Re: Best Greens-- Modern Courses
« Reply #4 on: May 26, 2002, 06:56:05 PM »
This immediatly brings to mind, What the definition of best is?

I first thought of Spyglass and how few of those notoriously difficult  greens have severe interior contours but use either more subtle ones or the natural slope.

Juxtaposed to the greens at Pinon which have rolls that section the almost ameoba shaped greens.

Both are challenging but more local knowledge is needed at Spy. Pinons are somewhat easier to predict if one allows for the reverse side of said slopes.
« Last Edit: December 31, 1969, 07:00:00 PM by 1056376800 »

TEPaul

Re: Best Greens-- Modern Courses
« Reply #5 on: May 26, 2002, 07:22:15 PM »
Without question Friar's Head has some really good greens, and a number of them will be an exercise in imagination to putt, like some of the greens on NGLA!
« Last Edit: December 31, 1969, 07:00:00 PM by 1056376800 »

Will E

  • Karma: +0/-0
Re: Best Greens-- Modern Courses
« Reply #6 on: May 26, 2002, 09:21:50 PM »
I really enjoyed the greens at the Palms in La Quinta. Each green had a very clear "best path" route to it. Does anyone know how much Couples was involved in this design?
Kid,
The only bad rap I've heard on Chechesse is the green complexes. While a lot of them were push ups they worked well for my eye. We probably need to get back and check the course out again in not such a rush. I'm still betting it's as good as we remember it.
« Last Edit: December 31, 1969, 07:00:00 PM by 1056376800 »

Tommy_Naccarato

Re: Best Greens-- Modern Courses
« Reply #7 on: May 26, 2002, 09:30:28 PM »
Shooter, I too enjoyed the Palms as a golf course, but the best modern greens?

I need to get you to Rustic Canyon, Apache Stronghold and Pacific Dunes. (Supposedly Tom Doak being told to not be too bold, ha ha!)(they are for all intensive purpose--perfect.)

Pinch me I'm dreaming.

I have some pretty phemnominal greens an hour from my house!
« Last Edit: December 31, 1969, 07:00:00 PM by 1056376800 »

RJ_Daley

  • Karma: +0/-0
Re: Best Greens-- Modern Courses
« Reply #8 on: May 26, 2002, 09:41:54 PM »
This is a tough question because there are so many green variations.  How do you ever start to 'rate' them?  Do you look at them from their grading and contouring relating from the approach shot choices and what that does to the various approach strategies.  Or do you look at them as the ones with the most dramatic contouring through the use of spacious Sq footage on the green or least sq footage on the green effecting strictly putting?  Take Sand Hills for a modern course with smallish greens.  I would guess that there are more than 1/2 of them <4000-4500 sqft.  But they match the surrounds and approaches and drape over the land.  Then there is a modern course that has big dramatic plateau greens at Arcadia Bluffs.  Two really different courses, both with exciting greens.  

Finally, I don't think one can work towards and answer to this without considering the maintenance meld, correlating the green speed and turf cultivar with the design of surrounds, and contours at the edges, crowned, or varied internal rolls.  

I may come down to Dr Mac's advise that the best greens may be built by the village idiot acting on instructions to go out and make them smooth and flat... ::)
« Last Edit: December 31, 1969, 07:00:00 PM by 1056376800 »
No actual golf rounds were ruined or delayed, nor golf rules broken, in the taking of any photographs that may be displayed by the above forum user.

Will E

  • Karma: +0/-0
Re: Best Greens-- Modern Courses
« Reply #9 on: May 26, 2002, 09:56:50 PM »
Tommy,
Maybe I'm giving the Palms too much credit, but please remember what was there to work with. I still think that what they did with the greens, and the areas around them is very impressive and fits well. Not sure I like the uniform rows of palms. Very parkland for the desert don't you think?
Side note- have you ever noticed the area that is grassed long and right of the 14th hole at the  La Quinta Mt. course?
I wonder why it's not used.
I'm very interested to see more of Doak's green work, my only experiences are with High Pointe where I really missed it and Black Forest (over the top greens,??? still one of my favorite places).


« Last Edit: December 31, 1969, 07:00:00 PM by 1056376800 »

Tommy_Naccarato

Re: Best Greens-- Modern Courses
« Reply #10 on: May 26, 2002, 10:25:56 PM »
Shooter,
The best C&S greens I have played to date would have to be at Goose Creek where they utilized crowns in certain ares whihc really make you think where you want to land you ball on the approach. I think greens like these make better golfers out of even the most mediocre of players simply because of making you think of those areas.

The greens at the Palms are similar, but unfortunately not as memorable when thinking of those crowns. The green shapes themselves never really vary and ultimately it is hard for me to really give them the creedence that they deserve.

Now, to let you know, shortly, less then 20 minutes after playing The Palms, I was at ultra-exclusive and ultra-pricey Quarry At La Quinta. The entire time I was there, I was wishing I was back at the Palms! It is a fun golf course designed in way many golf courses should be designed.

So, I would have to say that would mean something!:)
« Last Edit: December 31, 1969, 07:00:00 PM by 1056376800 »

TEPaul

Re: Best Greens-- Modern Courses
« Reply #11 on: May 27, 2002, 04:33:29 AM »
RJ:

I read your post with interest! How would you feel about a golf course that has a bit of everything you described there? If it did it might describe the greens of a course like NGLA! NGLA's greens are a little bit of every single kind of shape, contour, slope etc, etc, and many of them in the most unformulaic places too which really makes them unique, in my opinion.

Examples of that would be the greens on both #6 and #17, both very interesting greens but hardly the type green anyone would ever expect to find on the type of hole they're on!!

The only remaining combo I could see that NGLA may not have at the moment is a really long par 4 with a green that's anything but accepting of a long second shot!! The course could also have that by simply making an alternate card that calls #7 a par 4!!!
« Last Edit: December 31, 1969, 07:00:00 PM by 1056376800 »

brad_miller

  • Karma: +0/-0
Re: Best Greens-- Modern Courses
« Reply #12 on: May 27, 2002, 04:50:44 AM »
Nothing from P Dye, my one time at Sawgrass (shotgun) thought I remembered some pretty cool greens, significantly better than PGA West. Is a great green like pornography, "I know it when I see it (play it)"

Whats Fazio's best... any that are not basically flat?
What's Rees best?
How bout Jack and the other Jones?
« Last Edit: December 31, 1969, 07:00:00 PM by 1056376800 »

TEPaul

Re: Best Greens-- Modern Courses
« Reply #13 on: May 27, 2002, 05:05:54 AM »
Fazio did a number of greens at Galloway that are great greens by any standard (#1, #2, #3-a little severe, #7, #11, #13 or #14, #17 and maybe #18!).

Even Hartfeld (#12, #14, #17, and 18.
« Last Edit: December 31, 1969, 07:00:05 PM by -1 »

Robert "Cliff" Stanfield

  • Karma: +0/-0
Re: Best Greens-- Modern Courses
« Reply #14 on: May 27, 2002, 05:08:52 AM »
Brad-

I have not played very many Pete Dye Courses but I would have to recommend the renovation of Birmingham CC West Course.  He did some really spectacular work there not only on the greens but the fwys and bunkering are awesome.  I would have say there are some great par 3's there and the 18th has an awesome backdrop for spectators etc.

I was told when I used to live there that the PGA wanted to have the PGA Championship there but could not handle the parking...so it went to Shoal Creek.  If you ever get a chance this CC is what a Club should be...close to downtown and 36 holes...one course easier than the other for faster play.  
« Last Edit: December 31, 1969, 07:00:00 PM by 1056376800 »

Ran Morrissett

  • Karma: +0/-0
Re: Best Greens-- Modern Courses
« Reply #15 on: May 27, 2002, 06:42:53 AM »
Kapalua Plantation - greens that run away from the golfer (e.g. 7, 17, and 18), tiny green were needed (e.g. 14), huge greens, sharply pitched greens from back to front (e.g. 8, 15 and 16), convoluted interior contours (e.g. 4), greens and entrances perfectly tied together (e.g. 1, 2 and 5), sharply tilted greens with huge breaking putts (e.g. 10 and 13 (!)).

I still consider Kapalua Plantation as 1) Coore & Crenshaw's finest design (in large part because of the excellence of the green complexes) and 2) ironically, the least understood course in this country.

« Last Edit: December 31, 1969, 07:00:00 PM by 1056376800 »

Craig Rokke

Re: Best Greens-- Modern Courses
« Reply #16 on: May 27, 2002, 08:32:47 AM »
2 I thought were really good: Ocean Course, Inniscrone
« Last Edit: December 31, 1969, 07:00:00 PM by 1056376800 »

Gene Greco

  • Karma: +0/-0
Re: Best Greens-- Modern Courses
« Reply #17 on: May 27, 2002, 07:57:37 PM »
both Apache Stronghold and Sand Hills have greens which are a blast to putt. the movement at both can be as severe as at NGLA. however, at Sand Hills one must factor in the wind which presents a whole new set of challenges!
« Last Edit: December 31, 1969, 07:00:00 PM by 1056376800 »
"...I don't believe it is impossible to build a modern course as good as Pine Valley.  To me, Sand Hills is just as good as Pine Valley..."    TOM DOAK  November 6th, 2010

ed_getka

  • Karma: +0/-0
Re: Best Greens-- Modern Courses
« Reply #18 on: May 29, 2002, 10:39:32 PM »
Rustic Canyon
The Kingsley Club
Maderas (by our own Neal Meagher)
Barona Creek
Lost Dunes
« Last Edit: December 31, 1969, 07:00:00 PM by 1056376800 »
"Perimeter-weighted fairways", The best euphemism for containment mounding I've ever heard.

David Wigler

  • Karma: +0/-0
Re: Best Greens-- Modern Courses
« Reply #19 on: May 30, 2002, 05:35:31 AM »
Cuscowilla needs to be on the short list.  They are fantastic.
« Last Edit: December 31, 1969, 07:00:00 PM by 1056376800 »
And I took full blame then, and retain such now.  My utter ignorance in not trumpeting a course I have never seen remains inexcusable.
Tom Huckaby 2/24/04

Mike_Cirba

Re: Best Greens-- Modern Courses
« Reply #20 on: May 30, 2002, 06:59:03 AM »
Olde Kinderhook by Rees Jones needs to be in this discussion.  They are clearly the best of his I've seen.  They are also maintained FIRMLY, with nary a ball mark.  You can "hear" the ball rolling across them.  
« Last Edit: December 31, 1969, 07:00:00 PM by 1056376800 »

Tim Weiman

Re: Best Greens-- Modern Courses
« Reply #21 on: May 30, 2002, 10:18:34 AM »
If asked to select just one modern green worthy of study, it would be the 15th hole at Sand Ridge.  This is a green where you will never be impressed looking at it the first time.  You are more likely to wonder why I believe it is special.  In fact, on several occasions I’ve taken people out to this green and asked if they were impressed.

I don’t recall any positive responses.

But, don’t be fooled by first impressions.  The more you play it, the more you realize what a devil Tom Marzolf created.  When there is time, I’m fond of asking guests to try 50 putts from various angles around 20 feet or so from the hole.  Most guests make none of these putts.  The best I’ve seen is a person make two putts.  In all the times I’ve played the hole, I’ve never made any putt of this length.

So what make this green worthy of study?  It all comes down to the subtlety of the contours and how many tricky pin positions exist on the green.  There is almost nowhere on the green where a putt of any length is easy.  You get nervous just standing on the tee more than 300 yards away.

Candidly, I was not impressed by the contour of the greens when Sand Ridge was under construction, for they are very modern and lack the bold contour we cherish on many classic courses.  But, I remember Jim Roney who came to Sand Ridge from Merion telling me one day “Tim, I know you’ve seen a lot of golf courses, but from all the conversations we’ve had, I really don’t think you understand these greens”.

Roney was absolutely right, especially when it comes to #15.  I will never say I like it, but will also never hesitate to call it a modern masterpiece.

By the way, I give credit to Tom Marzolf for this green based on input from John Zimmers.


« Last Edit: December 31, 1969, 07:00:00 PM by 1056376800 »

Ken_Cotner

Re: Best Greens-- Modern Courses
« Reply #22 on: May 30, 2002, 10:28:22 AM »
I had fun with the greens at Kiawah's River Course.

KC
« Last Edit: December 31, 1969, 07:00:00 PM by 1056376800 »

Scott_Burroughs

  • Karma: +0/-0
Re: Best Greens-- Modern Courses
« Reply #23 on: May 30, 2002, 01:10:54 PM »
Ran,

In naming Kapalua as C&C's finest design, I assume you mean "due of the circumstances".  Meaning because they created a great, fun layout from a severe site.  Sand Hills was already a great layout (by Nature) with unlimited great holes, they just went out there to "put green grass on them", right?   :)
« Last Edit: December 31, 1969, 07:00:00 PM by 1056376800 »

jim_lewis

  • Karma: +0/-0
Re: Best Greens-- Modern Courses
« Reply #24 on: May 30, 2002, 03:32:27 PM »
I prefer not to evaluate greens without also considering the surrounding green complex, including chipping areas. Also, I like to take into account the length and trajectory of the shot required to hit the green.  Having said that, the following are the modern courses which have the best "greens" I have seen (in aphabetical order):

Bandon Dunes (Kidd)
Black Diamond-Quarry  (Fazio)
Cherokee Plantation  (Steele)
Double Eagle  (Moorish/Weiskopf)
Forest Creek (Fazio)
Cuscowilla  (C&C)
Long Cove  (Dye)
Ocean Course at Kiawah (Dye)
Olde Farm   (Weed)
Pete Dye GC  (Dye)
River Front  (Doak)
Sand Hills  (C&C)

If I were forced to narrow it down to 3, they would be Sand Hills, Forest Creek, and Cuscowilla.
« Last Edit: December 31, 1969, 07:00:05 PM by -1 »
"Crusty"  Jim
Freelance Curmudgeon

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