[Ally Mcintosh]

Just been looking at the Riviera 8th thread, talking about restoring Thomas's original hole.

Restoring classic courses (as opposed to renovating or redesigning) is big business in the States...

But in Europe and the UK (where amazingly Joe Public's knowledge of their golf course's history is actually very low), we hardly ever see genuine restoration projects...

Are there any good examples?... Askernish comes to mind as a recent one but that was really a case of rediscovery rather than restoration...

On the flip side, what courses in the UK&I do you think have lost their initial design intent and aesthetic look?... In other words, what courses could do with a restoration?...

Thanks

[Jamie Barber]

perhaps not full restoration - but I've read of many of the heathland courses removing trees and gorse to allow heather back and have the course more like the original design.

Probably Mark can tell you more but Deal recently underwent a programme of changes to restore more links-like playing conditions (I recall reading about overwatering in the past and lob wedges becoming the most popular purchase in the pro shop). I think Deal have published the report on their website.

I guess it's been remarked many times on GCA about Prince's and the loss of the original course.

[Rich Goodale]

Ally

In my experience, the Euros have much more willingness to renovate their great old courses than Americans, and I suspect that most if not virtually all courses that have done so would not want to go back to Ye Olden days.  Of the courses I know a bit about:

--Dornoch's renovation in 1946 was a massive improvement over what was there before (no, I'm not that old, but all the old holes still exist on the Struie Course, so it is easy to see how the course changed).

--Carnoustie would an inferior course without the 1930-1 renovations.  And, the very new New 3rd is significantly better than the old one.

--I doubt that Hoylake or Birkdale or Lahinch or Waterville would like to go back to what they looked like the first time I played them ~1980.  The modern improvements are just that--improvements

--Those courses who renovated in response to the Haskell ball and/or a declining tolerance for blindness (e.g. Muirfield, Sandwich, Royal Aberdeen) are unlikely to go back to the old routings.

--even the Old Course was renovated (c. 1850) with the creation of what is now the outward 1/2.  Would anybody want to replant the gorse on that land and go back to single file golf down the left hand 1/2 of the course?  Well, yes, I know there are people on this site who would but......

Maybe one could restore great lost individual holes such as Sandy Parlour at Deal, but I don't know the course well enough to see how practical that would be.  Maybe we can have a field trip whilst at Deal for the BUDA Cup to try to find out!

There actually is one restoration that I think would work, and it is at my home club, Aberdour.  About 35 years ago, some land became available and the course was extended from (as I have been told) a superb and extremely compact (60 acres?) par 63 gem with the best greens in Fife to a still charming but less so par 67 with a few long walks between holes and a couple of problematic new greens.  When it was in its old routing the Club produced some great golfers, including a British Boys champion, a successful pro, a Curtis Cup player and several winners of the Fife amateur Order of Merit.  This from a 4,700 yard course in a village of little more than 1,000 people.

Those must have been the days....

Rich

[Sean_A]

Ally

In my experience, the Euros have much more willingness to renovate their great old courses than Americans, and I suspect that most if not virtually all courses that have done so would not want to go back to Ye Olden days.  Of the courses I know a bit about:

--Dornoch's renovation in 1946 was a massive improvement over what was there before (no, I'm not that old, but all the old holes still exist on the Struie Course, so it is easy to see how the course changed).

--Carnoustie would an inferior course without the 1930-1 renovations.  And, the very new New 3rd is significantly better than the old one.

--I doubt that Hoylake or Birkdale or Lahinch or Waterville would like to go back to what they looked like the first time I played them ~1980.  The modern improvements are just that--improvements

--Those courses who renovated in response to the Haskell ball and/or a declining tolerance for blindness (e.g. Muirfield, Sandwich, Royal Aberdeen) are unlikely to go back to the old routings.

--even the Old Course was renovated (c. 1850) with the creation of what is now the outward 1/2.  Would anybody want to replant the gorse on that land and go back to single file golf down the left hand 1/2 of the course?  Well, yes, I know there are people on this site who would but......

Maybe one could restore great lost individual holes such as Sandy Parlour at Deal, but I don't know the course well enough to see how practical that would be.  Maybe we can have a field trip whilst at Deal for the BUDA Cup to try to find out!

There actually is one restoration that I think would work, and it is at my home club, Aberdour.  About 35 years ago, some land became available and the course was extended from (as I have been told) a superb and extremely compact (60 acres?) par 63 gem with the best greens in Fife to a still charming but less so par 67 with a few long walks between holes and a couple of problematic new greens.  When it was in its old routing the Club produced some great golfers, including a British Boys champion, a successful pro, a Curtis Cup player and several winners of the Fife amateur Order of Merit.  This from a 4,700 yard course in a village of little more than 1,000 people.

Those must have been the days....

Rich

Rich

I agree with you.  Other than the odd hole or feature, most links were altered for the better.  I am not so sure we can say the same for inland courses.  The encroachment of trees and other issues have had a significant impact on the strategy of many classic courses, the playing conditions/characteristics and the size of greens.  I think Jamie is right that many heathland courses are rectifying some of these issues as I type. 

Ciao 

[Jon Wiggett]

Restoring the greens at Sitwell Park, Yorkshire to MacKenzie's original design would be good to see.

[Niall C]

Ally

In my experience, the Euros have much more willingness to renovate their great old courses than Americans, and I suspect that most if not virtually all courses that have done so would not want to go back to Ye Olden days.  Of the courses I know a bit about:

--Dornoch's renovation in 1946 was a massive improvement over what was there before (no, I'm not that old, but all the old holes still exist on the Struie Course, so it is easy to see how the course changed).

--Carnoustie would an inferior course without the 1930-1 renovations.  And, the very new New 3rd is significantly better than the old one.

--I doubt that Hoylake or Birkdale or Lahinch or Waterville would like to go back to what they looked like the first time I played them ~1980.  The modern improvements are just that--improvements

--Those courses who renovated in response to the Haskell ball and/or a declining tolerance for blindness (e.g. Muirfield, Sandwich, Royal Aberdeen) are unlikely to go back to the old routings.

--even the Old Course was renovated (c. 1850) with the creation of what is now the outward 1/2.  Would anybody want to replant the gorse on that land and go back to single file golf down the left hand 1/2 of the course?  Well, yes, I know there are people on this site who would but......

Maybe one could restore great lost individual holes such as Sandy Parlour at Deal, but I don't know the course well enough to see how practical that would be.  Maybe we can have a field trip whilst at Deal for the BUDA Cup to try to find out!

There actually is one restoration that I think would work, and it is at my home club, Aberdour.  About 35 years ago, some land became available and the course was extended from (as I have been told) a superb and extremely compact (60 acres?) par 63 gem with the best greens in Fife to a still charming but less so par 67 with a few long walks between holes and a couple of problematic new greens.  When it was in its old routing the Club produced some great golfers, including a British Boys champion, a successful pro, a Curtis Cup player and several winners of the Fife amateur Order of Merit.  This from a 4,700 yard course in a village of little more than 1,000 people.

Those must have been the days....

Rich

Rich,

I think you would be surprised how many significant changes the greenkeeper John Philp has done at Carnoustie over the last 20 odd years. He undoubtedly brought the general condition of the course upto a much higher standard than it had been but he has also made a lot of changes of an architectural nature.

I didn't play the course before the changes but if you look at old photos of the 17th and 18th you will note that the area in between has been slightly banked/mounded, particularly between 17th tees and 18th green. Of more significance is the mounding on the right over the Barry Burn at the 17th. It isn't all that large but it is significant in that it reduces the bail out area on the right.

Other changes include mounding and burn up the right of the 6th (Hogans Alley)

Creating a raised saddle area in front of the 15th green and creating banking to the rear of green to almost turn it into a dell type hole.

Whether you would call that renovation I'm not sure. In my view the changes to the 6th and 17th tighten the holes and therefore reduce the available startegies for playing the hole. I think thats perhaps more than renovation.

In contrast I understand that he pushed back Braids bunker on the 2nd to bring it back into play. I would call that renovation as it renews the strategic value of that bunker.

What do you think ?

Niall

ps don't agree with your view on the most recent changes to the 3rd. Apart from some par 3's links golf used to be about being able to run a ball along the ground, you just don't get that option now on that hole.

[Gary Slatter]

Just been looking at the Riviera 8th thread, talking about restoring Thomas's original hole.

Restoring classic courses (as opposed to renovating or redesigning) is big business in the States...

But in Europe and the UK (where amazingly Joe Public's knowledge of their golf course's history is actually very low), we hardly ever see genuine restoration projects...

Are there any good examples?... Askernish comes to mind as a recent one but that was really a case of rediscovery rather than restoration...

On the flip side, what courses in the UK&I do you think have lost their initial design intent and aesthetic look?... In other words, what courses could do with a restoration?...

Thanks

Good topic, I play the Old Course once a week if possible (Thursday Club) and I always find it funny when one of the regulars often asks "What's new?".  Of course TOC cannot be restored - how would you decide what year/century should be the chosen one - and as long as she hosts the Open every five years the course will continue to evolve. 

One of our players on Sunday told me to make a bet at Ladbrokes that the Open this year will not be at Turnberry.  Has anyone else heard that?

[Ally Mcintosh]

So taking this a step further -

If most Links were altered for the better and do not require restoration, why is it that so many American courses do?

Are we actually saying that the Post-WWII European Architects did a better job than their American counterparts?... This seems to fly in the face of popular opinion on this board that there have been no good European Architects since the second world war (something I know Sean has argued against, quite correctly)...

You could argue that Hawtree's work at Lahinch was restoration of a kind... Whilst he clearly wasn't recreating certain details of MacKenzie's work, he did change the routing back closer to MacKenzie's course and try and keep his spirit in some of the changes...

But what about the inland courses?: The Surrey Heathlands for one. Philip Spogard has done great research in this area...

What about the Colt and Simpson courses of Belgium, Holland and France?... What about the MacKenzie courses in the UK?... There have been very few restorations as far as I can tell...

[Rich Goodale]

Ally

Let me posit a theory relative to your conundrum.  Having roughly 20 years of adult experience on either side of the pond it seems to me that until fairly recently, American courses tended to be changed in order for them to look better whilst GBI courses tended to be changed in order for them to play better.  Since in general the GBI clubs didn't make the mistakes which the American ones did in the 50's through the 80's (i.e. keeping up with the Jones's, using the Jones's....) , they didn't/don't really need to do any restoration, and when they do they naturally go to people like Hawtree who know what their courses have been and ought to be.  There is a far lower re-education hurdle needed with GBI Committees than with their American counterparts.  IMHO, of course.

Rich

[Niall C]

Rich,

Interesting to hear your comments regarding the differences between UK and America. I was always under the impression that in America they are a bit more aware of design and therefore more likely to use an architect to (hopefully) do a good job for them. In contrast in the UK it seems that a lot of local clubs are happy to let the greenkeeper do his stuff (see my comments on Carnoustie above) or make alterations according to the current greens convener, neither of whom are likely to have design experience.

What do they do at Aberdour, do they have an architect in tow for making any changes ?

Niall 

[Rich Goodale]

Niall

I was talking about 50's-80's America, when RTJ et. al. did their thing on a lot of classic courses.  In those days, design history was of very little importance to Committees, on both sides of the pond.  It is different now.

Aberdour is too small and insignificant to even think of changes much less hire an architect.  Like most clubs, survival is predominant strategy these days.

Rich

PS--getting back to your earlier comment re: Carnoustie, having written a book on the course (2007), I know fairly well what has been done over John Philp's tenure, much of which was directed by either the R&A or the Links Trust, for the 1999 and 2007 Opens.  I don't see the mounding between 17 and 18 as being much more than cosmetic (although Andres Romero might disagree....).  I don't think that Braid's bunker on the 2nd has been moved--rather the tee is 30-40 yards from wher it was 20-30 years ago, but I could be wrong.  I liked the old 3rd, but I think the new one is an improvement--more complexity and more options.  As I have said before, it is a neat mirror of what awaits you on the 17th.

Slainte

Rich

[Ally Mcintosh]

Rich,

Interesting to hear your theory that American course were changed to look better and UK ones to play better... Not 100% convinced by that... Although I can see what you mean by the mistakes in 50's to 80's America...

I think you'll find plenty of UK and European courses have changed much for the worse through neglect and maintenance practices... In the Heathlands, Sunningdale is one striking example - that famous picture of the Par-3 5th on the New Course... I love the example on the Royal Fagnes link below best though:

http://spa.mygolf.be/

It seems to boast that the same hole in 2006 is a better hole than its 1930 Tom Simpson equivalent... To me, it shows what an uphill battle we have...

I think Niall is correct in saying that Americans (certainly in these last 20 years) are more accutely aware of their design history

[Rich Goodale]

I agree with you (and Niall) about the US waking up to design history earlier than Europe, and tried to say so in my post above.  There is certainly a greater interest over here in recent years (spurred, to be said by a few people on this site, partricuarly by those focused on individual designers, e.g. Mackenzie and Colt).  Part of the problem over here has been that design pasts of many of our great courses are so murky.  Portmarnock, Dornoch, Brora, Lahinch, Ballybunion, Cruden Bay, etc. etc.--who really knows what was designed and built by whom and when or even why?

Great comparison photos for Spa.  Of course the 1930 version is more appealing to GCA wingnuts like us, but would it be to the average player?  This is what any Committee on a course with trees must face, every day.  How lucky are we who get to play links courses as a part of our daily diet....

Cheers

Rich

[Ally Mcintosh]

I agree with you (and Niall) about the US waking up to design history earlier than Europe, and tried to say so in my post above.  There is certainly a greater interest over here in recent years (spurred, to be said by a few people on this site, partricuarly by those focused on individual designers, e.g. Mackenzie and Colt).  Part of the problem over here has been that design pasts of many of our great courses are so murky.  Portmarnock, Dornoch, Brora, Lahinch, Ballybunion, Cruden Bay, etc. etc.--who really knows what was designed and built by whom and when or even why?

Great comparison photos for Spa.  Of course the 1930 version is more appealing to GCA wingnuts like us, but would it be to the average player?  This is what any Committee on a course with trees must face, every day.  How lucky are we who get to play links courses as a part of our daily diet....

Cheers

Rich

Interesting comments about the murky design histories of our courses... Funnily enough, I'm in the middle of talking to people at the Irish courses and I'm not so sure the history of some of them is as murky as we think... Enda Glynn (uncle of GCA's Patrick Glynn) has a great book at Lahinch that maps things out very well for that club... I've received a bit more clarity from the historian at Ballybunion as well...

As for the Spa photos, it is the courses like this that would be interesting to see restored... Perhaps America is just 20 years ahead of us in this regard... Certainly, the Heathlands are taking small steps... maybe it's just a matter of time before clubs go the whole hog and restore to former glories (whilst leaving the added length)...

[Rich Goodale]

Ally

I agree that Lahinch and Ballybunion (and Protmarnock...), have a fairly well detailed understanding of their architectural history.  To me, the murkiness relates less what is available than what is not expressed.  Clubs have a vested interest (in terms of marketing or just self-esteem) in being known as belonging to a course designed by A Great Man (e.g. Morris, Braid, Simpson, Mackenzie etc.).  That the facts often show otherwise is an inconvenient truth that some are loath to reveal.  Lahinch is easily the most transparent (and knowledgeable) club on these matters that I know of, and they should be commended for that.

Rich

[Niall C]

Niall

I was talking about 50's-80's America, when RTJ et. al. did their thing on a lot of classic courses.  In those days, design history was of very little importance to Committees, on both sides of the pond.  It is different now.

Aberdour is too small and insignificant to even think of changes much less hire an architect.  Like most clubs, survival is predominant strategy these days.

Rich

PS--getting back to your earlier comment re: Carnoustie, having written a book on the course (2007), I know fairly well what has been done over John Philp's tenure, much of which was directed by either the R&A or the Links Trust, for the 1999 and 2007 Opens.  I don't see the mounding between 17 and 18 as being much more than cosmetic (although Andres Romero might disagree....).  I don't think that Braid's bunker on the 2nd has been moved--rather the tee is 30-40 yards from wher it was 20-30 years ago, but I could be wrong.  I liked the old 3rd, but I think the new one is an improvement--more complexity and more options.  As I have said before, it is a neat mirror of what awaits you on the 17th.

Slainte

Rich

Rich,

Excuse my ignorance, I hadn't appreciated you had written a book on Carnoustie, and there I was trying to tell you all about it ! My apologies. With regards to Braids bunker, I may have a faulty memory but I thought Philp had moved the bunker bit thinking about it further moving the tee would be a much smarter option. I bow to your superior knowledge.

When I asked you about Aberdour I was interested to hear how the committee dealt with any alterations that are done from time to time. While Aberdour may be modest in comparison with other "championship" courses it doesn't mean that the club shouldn't be getting good professional advice when making any alterations. Unfortunately I see too many clubs try to go it alone and end up paying the price, which was the point I was trying to make.

Niall

[Rich Goodale]

Hey, Niall, I'm mostly ignorant too.  I don't know that they didn't move that bunker, but I assume not.  I could be wrong.

As for Aberdour GC and other small/medium sized clubs of their ilk, I think they do most alterations in house, but they are usually minor ones (re-building tees, filling in bunkers, tree planting and removal, etc.).  They do pay for STRI (Scottish Turf Research Institute) advice.  I think there is a need for architectural conmsulting advice for such clubs, but good luck in trying to pry even a few thousand pounds from Finance Convenors in the current economic climate.

rich

[Niall C]

Rich,

A couple of grand on fees doesn't seem like a lot when you are spending a lot more money on building a new green or the like. Sometimes its the small and/or inexpensive changes which can have the biggest effect.

Niall

ps having been suitably chastened in not knowing I was corresponding with a great author, I took the trouble to look at your feature interviews, all good stuff. Something you said about Sutherland at Dornoch brought to mind my round at Dundonald the other day. What Dundonald lacks and Kingsbarns has is the time put into the off course areas by Mark Parsinen and team which makes it special. BTW - winter rounds at Dundonald currently £30 !

[Joel_Stewart]

I know Tom Watson Design has done some extensive work at Ballybunion including rebuilding the bunkers and adding some new tees.  Hopefully somebody can comment on that work?

[Rich Goodale]

Rich,

A couple of grand on fees doesn't seem like a lot when you are spending a lot more money on building a new green or the like. Sometimes its the small and/or inexpensive changes which can have the biggest effect.

Niall

ps having been suitably chastened in not knowing I was corresponding with a great author, I took the trouble to look at your feature interviews, all good stuff. Something you said about Sutherland at Dornoch brought to mind my round at Dundonald the other day. What Dundonald lacks and Kingsbarns has is the time put into the off course areas by Mark Parsinen and team which makes it special. BTW - winter rounds at Dundonald currently £30 !

Niall

You may be right about the value of such fees, but as many architects will tell you, they can be the last to be paid even if their work is good and times are good, but budgets at small clubs are VERY tight right now.

Vis a vis Sutherland and Parsinen, the latter spent over 50 years of his life on the one course whilst Parsinen spent roughly a 10th of that on Kingsbarns, and is now gone from the scene.  I know it is being tweaked, but is it still improving, as any course wanting to be great must?  I haven't seen it recently or often enough to know.

Rich

[Niall C]

Rich,

The point I was trying to make was that as you say, Sutherland was a "benign dictator" at Dornoch, then you could maybe say the same about Parsinen at Dornoch. Clearly he has had a big influence at KB to the extent that he is listed as co-designer. If you compare KB to Dundonald which is also a Kyle Phillips design, KB looks much more finished than Dundonald where the off course areas (where I tend to end up !) just don't blend in. To my mind that is the real triumph of Kingsbarns, that it all looks so natural.

As to what there doing at KB, I couldn't really say. I played there last year and it didn't look any different to when I was there a couple of years previously.

Niall

[Cristian]

So taking this a step further -

If most Links were altered for the better and do not require restoration, why is it that so many American courses do?

Are we actually saying that the Post-WWII European Architects did a better job than their American counterparts?... This seems to fly in the face of popular opinion on this board that there have been no good European Architects since the second world war (something I know Sean has argued against, quite correctly)...

You could argue that Hawtree's work at Lahinch was restoration of a kind... Whilst he clearly wasn't recreating certain details of MacKenzie's work, he did change the routing back closer to MacKenzie's course and try and keep his spirit in some of the changes...

But what about the inland courses?: The Surrey Heathlands for one. Philip Spogard has done great research in this area...

What about the Colt and Simpson courses of Belgium, Holland and France?... What about the MacKenzie courses in the UK?... There have been very few restorations as far as I can tell...

With regard to Holland/Belgium/France Colt-Simpson courses:
There have been considerable restoration works going on at many of these clubs, including but not limited to, Haagsche, Kennemer, De Pan and Eindhoven in Holland and Fontainebleau in France.

 http://www.golfclubatlas.com/interviewpont.html

[Alfonso Erhardt]

Cristian,

In Spain the "restoration" concept is non-existent (probably as a lack of interest for golf architecture from a historical/evolutionary point of view).

Colt / Simpson built 10-12 courses in Spain which today are mostly unrecognizable. We have a tradition of building over (not only in golf!!!!) and preferring new things to older ones.

Regards,

[Ally Mcintosh]

So taking this a step further -

If most Links were altered for the better and do not require restoration, why is it that so many American courses do?

Are we actually saying that the Post-WWII European Architects did a better job than their American counterparts?... This seems to fly in the face of popular opinion on this board that there have been no good European Architects since the second world war (something I know Sean has argued against, quite correctly)...

You could argue that Hawtree's work at Lahinch was restoration of a kind... Whilst he clearly wasn't recreating certain details of MacKenzie's work, he did change the routing back closer to MacKenzie's course and try and keep his spirit in some of the changes...

But what about the inland courses?: The Surrey Heathlands for one. Philip Spogard has done great research in this area...

What about the Colt and Simpson courses of Belgium, Holland and France?... What about the MacKenzie courses in the UK?... There have been very few restorations as far as I can tell...

With regard to Holland/Belgium/France Colt-Simpson courses:
There have been considerable restoration works going on at many of these clubs, including but not limited to, Haagsche, Kennemer, De Pan and Eindhoven in Holland and Fontainebleau in France.

 http://www.golfclubatlas.com/interviewpont.html

Thanks Cristian,

I knew a bit about Frank Pont's work in Kennemer and The Hague...

Over there seeing both courses in a couple of weeks time...

[Cristian]

You will have a great time! Especially on Haagsche which I feel is an underrated course. It is a good time to visit, as the restoration was completed summer 2008, ending a 2-year period of either the front or back nine being under (partial) construction.

If you need any advice on accomodation restaurants or anything else, give me a call. I live in Amsterdam, just over 30 mins from both courses.

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