Challenges aside from length

[Jon Wiggett]

Joe,

I think that most sane people (and many that are not ) find lengthening courses some how distasteful but it is the first wepon that is used in most cases. The problem is it does not affect the top players anywhere near as much as most people think.

For example if Carnoustie was as open as TOC I think the scoring there would be very close to that at TOC. Making a course more challenging to the top players is more to do with contours than distance, green speeds, etc. Rough is of course a deadly wepon but is also deadly boring for the viewer.

 I believe strongly sloping greens and surrounds plus unlevel lies in the fairway are the way forward. The reason most top players moan about sloping greens is because it presents a challenge that they struggle with.

[Phil_the_Author]

Kalen,

The answer to your first question is the hole you blithely cast aside... the 10th.

What you should be asking is What, How and Why does the short 10th hole challenge these professionals. Then take those answers and apply them to holes of varying lengths in the 350 to 420 yard ranges...

I think you'll discover that you've created a hell of a golf course.

[Matt_Ward]

Joe H:

Spot on with your point on limiting the total number of clubs. It would certainly bring back "feel" shots and shaping as the situation requires.

Gents:

I've said this before -- to challenge the big boys you need to have holes that move slightly from either right-to-left or left-to-right. Hitting it straight and long isn't a task with today's equipment. Getting a player to marry distance AND shaping the curve of the ball on command is an entirely different matter.

What one course does this so well ?

Head over to the West at Winged Foot - to name just one.

Players of world class type can now apply the bomb and gouge technique and succeed at-will. Change that to include ball movement off the tee and you will see a skill level beyond the muscle dynamic.