[Jordan Wall]

The par-4's on the back nine of Riviera, aside from #10, are all very long, in the 470 to 490 yard range.  I don't the yardages of those on the front.

But, is length really the only way to challenge tour players?

Besides #10 which is a great example of a short par-4, what are other good examples of real medium length holes (360-420) that force even the best to think about and pull off each shot?

What makes a medium length hole challenging for all players, including and perhaps especially pros. 

Not every green can be as small as Riviera's tenth to challenge player's.  There has got to be other ways then extending the back tee, over and over again.

Cheers,
Jordan

[Tom Huckaby]

I can't see that any amount of length will challenge tour pros.

If you want them to struggle:

a) make them think
b) trick up or tiny-size the green
c) make the green surrounds exceedingly penal
d) add very high OR inconsistent rough

Seems Riv 10 succeeds on a, b, c.  If they wanted to make scores soar, just add in more of D.

TH

[Garland Bayley]

They could put the spin back in the ball.

[Joe Hancock]

And to continue dreaming....

Let them carry a maximum of 8 clubs in the bag. That would satiate all the "perfect distance" decries, and bring more relevance to "feeling" the shots.

Joe

[Tom Huckaby]

Oh my, I didn't think we were going to this extent of dreaming.... but I like it!  Two more:

1.  Ban caddies
2. Ban all distance information  - remove from the courses they play.

TH

[JMEvensky]

a) make them think

Short grass.It gives them too many options to compute.

[Tom Huckaby]

a) make them think

Short grass.It gives them too many options to compute.

My thinking as well... that's a GREAT way to do part (a).

[JESII]

a 400 yard hole is 2 iron - 9 iron...how does short grass make them think more, or challenge them more?



#10 at Shinnecock

#8 at Pebble


I don't much care if they do not hit driver off the tee.

[Joe Hancock]

a 400 yard hole is 2 iron - 9 iron...how does short grass make them think more, or challenge them more?



#10 at Shinnecock

#8 at Pebble


I don't much care if they do not hit driver off the tee.

In my scenario, they'd have to decide whether a 2 and 9 iron are actually in the bag.....

[Tom Huckaby]

a 400 yard hole is 2 iron - 9 iron...how does short grass make them think more, or challenge them more?



#10 at Shinnecock

#8 at Pebble


I don't much care if they do not hit driver off the tee.

short grass around the green, Jim.

10 shinnecock has it some parts, so if they miss the green they have big trouble.  

And of course it's not the ONLY way... just one very good way to make this happen.

TH

[Jim Franklin]

Why make it harder? Can't you enjoy the talents of these guys?

[Tom Huckaby]

Why make it harder? Can't you enjoy the talents of these guys?

MY thinking is by making it harder I enjoy their talents MORE.

But what the hell, I was just answering the question - not questioning the wisdom of it.

 

[Jim_Kennedy]

In an interview from '99 (or so) Tiger made a comment about how much trouble he was experiencing while playing a practice round at Augusta. The club hadn't mown any fairways because of  the previous day's weather and judging spin became a real 'problem'.

Spin balls & slightly higher fairways, a 'tough' combination.
  

[Joe Hancock]

Option #2:

 Don't have events on courses that have, as a majority, fairways that collect balls back towards the middle. Then, completely eliminate rough completely and combine that with a very minimalistic irrigation regime. Raise the fairway height of cut to 5/8" to screw with their "spin control". Shove pin placements out to the edges of the greens, and throw away that set up rule that makes pin placement on all the flat spots.

No more "bumper bowling" set-ups.

Joe

[Mark_F]

Ian Andrew wrote a couple of fantastic articles on his blog about such holes.

In them, I think he used Huntingdon Valley as a good example of a course routed where players have to work balls to stay on the correct part of slopes, and then hit a fade from a draw lie and vice versa, to hold a green.

Seems like a pretty good method.

Uphill approach shots to elevated greens also work well too.

[Bob_Huntley]

The par-4's on the back nine of Riviera, aside from #10, are all very long, in the 470 to 490 yard range.  I don't the yardages of those on the front.

But, is length really the only way to challenge tour players?

Besides #10 which is a great example of a short par-4, what are other good examples of real medium length holes (360-420) that force even the best to think about and pull off each shot?

What makes a medium length hole challenging for all players, including and perhaps especially pros. 

Not every green can be as small as Riviera's tenth to challenge player's.  There has got to be other ways then extending the back tee, over and over again.

Cheers,
Jordan

Jordan,

1) A plethora of water adjacent to the green site.

2) A narrow green set at an angle to the fairway, guarded by a bunker. I am thinking of the Shore's 5 par 6th hole at MPCC.  Good players have a short shot in, but the slope and narrowness of the green provides an adequate defense against an easy birdie.

Bob

[Sean_A]

For myself, I would like to see the number of clubs the pros (and all golfers) carry to less than 10.  I always believed that one of two things would happen in this scenario.  Guys would just select their clubs and accept the limitations of the set will have to  be made up with clever shot making.  OR, guys will fool with the set before every round trying to get the right mix on a daily basis.  In either case, I think it would promote more entertaining golf from a viewer's perspective. 

Second, I would have them play on the driest, firmest ground possible.  Again, I think the golf would be more entertaining to watch. 

I don't know if scores would go up a lot on firm ground and with a short set, but I am not bothered about the score anyway.  I want to be entertained.  If players have to plod their way round, controla the ball flight, employ bobblers and wristy flops and start looking left and right of the pin as either a means to keep the shot safe or use the contours then I think they are being challenged - especially if they can't whip out a club for every situation. 

Ciao

[Jordan Wall]

Why make it harder? Can't you enjoy the talents of these guys?

Jim,

The talent of these guys is what makes the majority of par-4's on a course such highly regarded as Riviera almost all 470 plus yards.

It's not unappreciated, rather it just seems there has been no alternative besides length to challenge these guys.  Surely there is more to challenge then length.

Cheers,
Jordan

[Jim Nugent]

It's not unappreciated, rather it just seems there has been no alternative besides length to challenge these guys.  Surely there is more to challenge then length.

Make the courses/holes more penal.  Higher rough.  Narrower fairways.  More hazards in/along the line of play.  Next-to-impossible pin placements.  OB.  Water.  Hard, fast maintenance meld.  Add tough weather (wind, cold), and you have a recipe for high scores. 

Year in, year out, isn't one of the hardest holes on the PGA tour a 425 yard par 4 at Poppy Hills? 

[Jon Wiggett]

Surely the challenge for the pro's on tour is to beat each other. I think some of you guys are so hung up on PAR that you forget that. By making the courses almost impossible to play you just make the game boring to watch for most viewers and the courses impossible to play for most players (i.e. normal amateur golfers). Is this really the future of golf?

[Joe Hancock]

Surely the challenge for the pro's on tour is to beat each other. I think some of you guys are so hung up on PAR that you forget that. By making the courses almost impossible to play you just make the game boring to watch for most viewers and the courses impossible to play for most players (i.e. normal amateur golfers). Is this really the future of golf?

Jon,

I strongly disagree with your assessment. I am not at all hung with par, and I truly think most of my suggestions above would add a tremendous amount of interest to watching the pro's try to beat each other.

Joe

[Rich Goodale]

I agree with Joe (~8 clubs) and Huck (no caddies), which is not surprising since I've held these positions for a long time.

Those would be good starters, and then maybe the Tour could do some thinking about maintenance.  My idea here would be to introduce planned uncertainty.  Have each stop on the tour experiment with all and more the various options that have been presented above.  Sow doubt into the players' minds as to what sort of set-up they'll be playing each week.  If you really want to play with their heads/make them think, maybe even allow for variations in maintenance practice on a hole by hole or even feature by feature basis.  Different consistencies of sand in the bunkers.  Some greens with closely mown chipping areas, some with deep rough.  Some fairways watered and mown high, some unwatered and cut low.  Greens which stimped between 8 and 13.  Etc. Etc. Etc.

This would make them play the game we do, rather than vice versa!

Rich

[Jim Franklin]

There is nothing worse than watching a pro or anyone gouge out of deep rough. no fun at all. Have Tom Doak make the greens if you want to challenge them. I would love to see what the pros would do on Ballyneal's greens if they rolled at 12 or 13.

[Jon Wiggett]

Jon,

I strongly disagree with your assessment. I am not at all hung with par, and I truly think most of my suggestions above would add a tremendous amount of interest to watching the pro's try to beat each other.

Joe

Joe,

all I am saying is that the idea in strokeplay is to play the course in as few shots as possible.

Just because the players today take less shots does not require lengthening the course or reducing the number of clubs unless you are trying to make it harder for them to shoot lower scores i.e. protect par.

If you were to use the same way of thinking for the 100 meter sprint (par is the same as the length of the race) then you would be favouring a 110 meter track or maybe a 5% incline.

I am not in agreement with you about the length as I don't think a 450 yard hole has to be more challenging than a 350 yard one. I do however think that you are correct to look at whats in the bag (number or type of clubs).

If lengthening the course is the only way then do we need GCA's???

[Joe Hancock]

Jon,

We're probably thinking the same. You are assuming I agree with lengthening as a form of adding challenge. In general, I do not due to:

Routing/ safety issues
Increased maintenance cost
Increasing void between levels of golfers
Slow play due to increased distance
Etc......

There are times when it's appropriate, but, as I think we are looking at in this thread, there are alternatives to address challenges without leaning on the crutch of length. I am not looking at this as solely addressing existing courses...I think we can lump in the courses that have yet to be designed and built.

Joe

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