More Changes to #8 at Riviera?

[Kevin_Reilly]

On today's telecast the announcers were surprised when Mickelson hit his drive on #8 to the left fairway, and that prompted some comments from Peter Oosterhuis about the fact that "the vast majority" of players (95% according to Kostis) were going to the right side.  He said that he didn't care for the current version of the hole - "an attempted recreation of George Thomas' double fairway". 

Old news here.

But he mentioned that he thought the hole was going to be re-done "to be closer to the George Thomas original". 

"The hole does need some work" said Oosterhuis.

"It needs a lot of work" said Peter Kostis.

Any word on what might be done?

[David Neveux]

I noticed the same thing, glad you brought it up.

For those who are familiar, I would love to hear some comments on whether or not they agree with the notion that going right is the optimal play and that left is too risky versus the payoff ?

I have obviously never played the golf course, is left that bad a play?  What are the conditions when a tee-ball down the left is valid play?.  I wonder, how was is the hole different now from it's original design?  How big a difference would a restoration make in terms of opening up the options off the tee?

Nev

[Ian Andrew]

The proposal is to remove all the trees between the holes, remove the fairway bunker on the left side landing, and try to re-create the baranca more like the sketch in Thomas's book.

The players when asked pointed out that the margin for error on the approach is greater from the right side - so they still don't see the reason for ever going left even after another change.

[Matt_Cohn]

Ian - yup, the announcers were talking about something that would make the approach from the right side to a right side pin "terrifying" but that was just their thoughts on the issue, not an actual plan.

[Michael Robin]

The current problem is that the right side has no risk off of the tee and you are rewarded with a 2 club shorter route on the approach, and the left side has been made even more difficult with the bunker in the driving area being made larger.

My opinion is that the right side driving area needs to be cut in half with a forced carry on a diagonal of 220 to 240 yards. Make it a bit of an island that puts fear in you from the tee, but rewards you with the 2 club shorter route if you execute successfully. You then have another forced carry for the approach. If you choose to go right you have to manage these 2 forced carries across the barranca, but you are rewarded with a shorter hole.

As for the left side, if the trees are removed the barranca can be widened and a draw option off of the tee restored allowing for many options for the player standing on the tee.

The last thing is that the barranca as a whole needs to be more fearsome. It use to be the dominant feature of the property, rugged and unkempt. A true hazard that ate golf balls with very little chance of recovery. It struck fear in you before you even faced it. Now, it's no big deal and you can play out of it if necessary. When Thomas routed the course it was a big enough deal that he incorporated it into 8 holes. And as it applies to #8, widen it in the driving area, and make it rugged and brutal around the green with sheer drop offs in the front and on the right like you would find with the river it once was.

[Philippe Binette]

Double fairways seems to be such a hard thing to get right (by double fairway I mean a fairway separated by a line element (creek, barranca) a bunker is a dot in that regard)...

It seems like players would definitely prefer one to another... It think when you have a double fairway, you need to have a green configuration that depending of pin positions make you debate on the side to choose...

[Adam Clayman]

The left side affords the better angle into the green. MR. What did the original green look like? How did it differ from the current?

[Steve Burrows]

I used to work at Riviera and spent a bit of time watching people play # 8, as well as having many opportunities to play it myself.  It is clear that most pros go to the right fairway, but it is interesting to note that quite a few members still play to the left side.  I would think this would be as much from habit as anything (since they played for years without even having an option).

Personally, though, when I would play the hole, my choice of fairway was dependent on the hole location.  If the pin was on the right side, I went left, as I found the view more appealing and there was at least a perception that I didn't have to challenge the right side fall-off quite so much.  Alternatively, when the pin was left, or especiallly in the back left, I would choose the right fairway.  There is a knob just off the left center of the green that made visibility difficult if one was on the left fairway, whereas going to the right fairway allowed a clear view of the flag, and a shot that was on-line, even if short, was still on the green and not in the kikuyu.

[David Stamm]

Michael, isn't the tee location different from when it was first designed? I seem to remember the tee originally being slightly more to the left, no?

[PCCraig]

I surprised they said on air that the hole needed alot of work done. What has Peter Oosterhuis designed?

[Damon Groves]

Does anyone know if there are plans to do the work that is needed? Geoff Shac..You out there?

[Kevin_Reilly]

I surprised they said on air that the hole needed alot of work done. What has Peter Oosterhuis designed?

He was director of golf there, so he knows the course.  I think that qualifies him to give an opinion like that.

[PCCraig]

I surprised they said on air that the hole needed alot of work done. What has Peter Oosterhuis designed?

He was director of golf there, so he knows the course.  I think that qualifies him to give an opinion like that.

I stand corrected! 

[Jeff Goldman]

I'm surprised no one has yet said that the alternate flat rectangle of a fairway certainly looks.....hideous.  Not to mention the green.

[Bill_McBride]

I stood behind the green today while 3 groups played thru. The pin was set terrifyingly close to the barranca on the very front right. I was surprised that only one of nine played to the left fairway , which appeared to leave a much safer approach. To prove this hypothesis, Tommy Armour made 8 fromdown in the barranca, while there were three bogies and no birdies.

I talked to a pro shop staffer later. He told me there is talk of removing the trees and creating a lake from the dammed up barranca.

Surely he was pulling my leg about the lake!!  I hope....

[Kalen Braley]

Bill,

This would not only be completely awesome, but totally sweet too!!! 

[Bill_McBride]

Bill,

This would not only be completely awesome, but totally sweet too!!! 

Bite your tongue, young man!

[David Stamm]

Bill,

This would not only be completely awesome, but totally sweet too!!! 

Kalen, please tell us yout joking.

[Kalen Braley]

Bill,

This would not only be completely awesome, but totally sweet too!!! 

Kalen, please tell us yout joking.

Why in the world would I possibly be joking...   

I know ur a big fan of the work that was done at Bel Air, Riv seems to be the logical next step for some upgrades....

[David Stamm]

Bill,

This would not only be completely awesome, but totally sweet too!!! 

Kalen, please tell us yout joking.

Now that's not funny!!!



I wonder how long it will take before this thread spins into left fw vs right fw political diatribe......

Why in the world would I possibly be joking...   

I know ur a big fan of the work that was done at Bel Air, Riv seems to be the logical next step for some upgrades....

[Mark Hissey]

I have spent a little bit of time with Jim Urbina on #8. He'd do a wonderful job on that hole and would return it to its past splendour.

It needs work.

[Bill_McBride]

I have spent a little bit of time with Jim Urbina on #8. He'd do a wonderful job on that hole and would return it to its past splendour.

It needs work.

It's very cool with no greenside bunkers and that steep dropoff into the barranca.  Is there a left side bunker?  I only saw the hole from behind the green.

The trees between the fairways need to go, and the barranca needs to be restored.  The combination of the tee shot angle (mentioned by David Stamm above), the trees that can block an approach from the right side of the left fairway, and the fairway bunker down the left side of that fairway, make the right fairway an obvious choice for the players.


But I still think that pin today called for a drive to the left.  Those guys are good, but maybe not THAT good!

[Tim Gavrich]

What about getting rid of all but a couple of the trees in the barranca and then narrowing the right fairway, cutting a couple narrow little bunkers into the left side of that fairway?  Those new bunkers would probably be more of a deterrent if they were deep enough, as more players going down the right would bail out further right, toward the big fairway bunker over there.

[Matthew Rose]

Was there ever actually water in it at one point?

[Adam Clayman]

As the song goes 'it never rains in California girl don't they warn ya it pours man it pours'.  My guess would be water mightve run through there before the army corp of engineers re did the major drainage.  The lake would be an unrecoverable hazard. As it is today the recovery is very difficult not impossible. In other words a horrible change.