Agree or Disagree

[Dale_McCallon]

"A golfer should be able to stand on the tee, look at the fairway and green, and use his intuition to choose the best angle of attack for his game."

Mark Parsinen, as quoted by Peper in Links

[Nicholas Coppolo]

Not sure......
That is if you can see the Fwy, Green, and hazards....which I don't think as mandatory in quality architecture.

If you can't see it you can't use intuition.  You could use memory, a caddy, or a yardage book.  I think they are no less valid or interesting options.

[John Moore II]

Forgive if this is a silly question, but when were those words said? It sounds very modern. Like from this new era of designers/players who want everything laid out in front of them perfectly with no thrill or surprise.

That being said, I don't agree. I think many times there aught to be stuff beyond sight that can affect the shot. Even down to contour in the fairway that is not visible from the tee.

[Dale_McCallon]

John,

It is very modern.  Parsinen is the co-designer of both Kingsbarn and Castle Stuart.  I'm like you, it did sound like he likes the course to just be laid out in front of you.

I found it odd that a man who has put his name on 2 of the biggest projects in Scotland over the past 10-15 years would have said it as well

[JESII]

Any chance this is a comment about the golfer as opposed to the architecture?

[TEPaul]

I've had a lot of good extended conversations with a lot of interesting people in architecture over the last dozen years about architecture but I don't think any of them were more interesting than with Mark Parsinen. As to what all he meant by that comment, well, he would be the best one to explain it.

[Dale_McCallon]

I've had a lot of good extended conversations with a lot of interesting people in architecture over the last dozen years about architecture but I don't think any of them were more interesting than with Mark Parsinen. As to what all he meant by that comment, well, he would be the best one to explain it.

Interesting in what ways..any specific stories/examples you can share?

[TEPaul]

Dale:

Sure, I'll try to tell a few specific stories but for now I'd just say Mark is a very deep thinker with architectural concept. He's a very bright man in a number of ways, in my opinion. When I met him in New York about 7 years ago we spent a morning talking about a lot of things to do with architectural concept but one was basically about how to essentially balance the risk/reward equations between varioius levels of players. And it wasn't just conceptual as he'd worked out a hole or two as examples.

[Rob Rigg]

Jim,

When I read the article I thought it was a bit odd as well - the context of the quote was in regards to the course - ie) having it in front of the golfer so he can determine the optimal strategy.

He seems like a pretty bloody sharp cookie so there is probably more to the story. It would have been nice if the quote had been either fleshed out more or was longer to clarfiy exactly what he meant.

I was not excited, however, about Parsinen tooling around with a GPS device giving out yardage to his mates. I thought this was supposed to be links golf - but I digress.

[Rich Goodale]

I generally agree with Parsinen, although I think that the greatest courses also reveal to you, through repeated play, other angles and strategies which may be more appropriate depending on the conditions and your own capabilities on the day.

I also agree with Jon Moore that there are and should be some features which are beyond the human eye from the tee.  Given that most players cannot pick up a golf ball which is moving away from them at much further than 250 yards, most driving holes can be affected by this additional axiom.

[Sean_A]

If its an absolute statement I couldn't disagree more.  Though I have seen plenty of holes where I though it would be better to cut the down so the player can see the green because I think many are somehow driven to take the direct (and often incorrect) line if they can see the target.

Ciao

[Bill Gayne]

Disagree. There are other cues as to the best line of play that can be used besides visual. An example may be a sentinel bunker.

[Gary Slatter]

I agree that this statement does not always need to apply, it works well with some holes that have elevated tees and the whole hole is laid out in front of you. It seems to be the guiding light for some courses, the White Witch in Jamaica is an example with 16 holes right there just like in a Strokesaver book. 

Maybe that's what Mark was referring to, "stand on the tee, look in your Player's Guide, and choose the best angle of attack for your game".  Phil could have used a good book/plan yesterday at Riviera.

[Niall C]

It remains to be seen how the Castle Stuart course plays but thinking of Kingsbarns there are at least two holes that readily come to mind where his statement doesn't hold up. I'm thinking of the 5th (I think) and 6th where there is a narrow downhill fairway leading to the green which gives you a choice to go for it or lay up. However I don't think you really can see this first time playing the course.

Now that I've thought about it the 18th also doesn't comply as you can't see the green from any of the tees.

If he said it as an absolute then can't agree but it seems to me with what he put into practice that he considers it a general principle only which I think is fair enough.

Like Tom Paul I've had the pleasure of meeting Mark Parsinen and he is indeed a very interesting guy who clearly put a lot into the creation of Kingsbarns. I remember he made repeated reference to the Old Course and to a lesser extent Dornoch as both being inspirations and I think you can see that clearly with KB. For example wide fairways, sometimes adjoining is clearly inspired by the Old Course, large greens like both TOC and Dornoch and the general raised beach layout which is very like Dornoch.

It does seem surprising though to make the statement he did and take TOC as an inspiration when it probably more than any other course contradicts that statement.

Niall

[Philippe Binette]

Agree... the key word in the sentence is INTUITION

Doesn't mean you have to se everything and doesn't mean the golfer will be right, the architect can win the intuition game...

[Mark_Fine]

Dale,
If he can't the first time playing the hole, he should be able to the second or third.
Mark

[Niall C]

Agree... the key word in the sentence is INTUITION

Doesn't mean you have to se everything and doesn't mean the golfer will be right, the architect can win the intuition game...

Thanks Philippe, you made me have a look at the statement again. I don't think he is suggesting that everything be in plain sight but that there should be something to suggest the way ahead.

I still stck by my comments on the Old Course though. If you didn't know any better you could stand on a lot of the tees there with absolutely no idea of where you're going.

Niall

Niall

[Mark_Fine]

Niall,
Only the first time.  Many seem to be hung up on how things present itself the first time we play a golf course.  Why I really don't know  Even distance runners walk their course before running it so they know what to expect and how to prepare.  A golfer would think that is crazy (at least most would) 

[Adam Clayman]

Holes such as the 8th @ both Cypress and Pebble violate the apparent meaning. My belief is not everything be spelled out but some sort of clue is neccessary.

[Mark_Fine]

Adam,
There is always a clue on ANY hole.  Some are just harder to find 
Mark

[Niall C]

Niall,
Only the first time.  Many seem to be hung up on how things present itself the first time we play a golf course.  Why I really don't know  Even distance runners walk their course before running it so they know what to expect and how to prepare.  A golfer would think that is crazy (at least most would) 

Mark,

My point about the Old Course is that on a lot of the holes, intuition doesn't give you any help at all. For instance,  I think it was Tom Simpson who said that bunkers act like signposts. A well placed bunker can give you a clue on line of play even when you can't see the landing area. Intuition then tells you that the architect has allowed you a bit of leeway.

I just don't think you get that from the Old Course.

Niall   

[Adam Clayman]

Mark. That is not always true. I could site I.e.'S but that would be ridiculed as a bias towards certain designers.

[Phil_the_Author]

Everyone is misreading what Mark stated. For some reason you want to believe that he was stating that the player should be able to see everything from the tee.

He isn't.

“Golf is in large part a game of emotions and how we manage them.
Consciously or not, course designers create the stage for an
unfolding emotional drama that the game of golf entails.” Mark Parsinen.

This is a piece that he wrote before building Kingsbarns and which he adapted to Castle Stuart (you can visit their new website at www.castlestuartgolf.com and also see his greens concept piece as well):

COURSE DESIGN GOALS

• The course should elicit anticipation and hopefulness in players of all skill levels; let it test one’s perceptual ability, judgment, decision-making, shot-making and emotional poise; let it not be difficult for the sake of being difficult, rather let it be interesting and engaging.
• Provide wide latitude for choice (wide fairways and play areas) but never let this lead to indifference (to line of play or length of shot); let asymmetry rule.
• Limit choice in some instances; but let the stern tests be ones to embrace, not to fear.
• As far as possible, keep the issues simple yet profound enough to engage and occupy the mind; let the issues be visual and dominating.
• Punctuate with blind issues, let mystery have a place.
• On the whole, let the player see the result of a good play; let him see his shot carry a hazard, his driver take a favorable contour, or his approach nestle close to a pin.
• Bring the sea into active shot-making frame as much as possible; let it be a real shot-making issue or visually unsettling when illusory.
• As far as possible, focus visual awareness on the course itself or on vistas of the sea and its surge against the rocky foreshore; minimize distance inland visual aspects; let the sea dominate.
• Use the topography to its fullest; let the play twist and turn, flowing over, around, through, into and atop the array of landforms.
• Provide dynamic holes, ones likely to yield a broad versus narrow distribution of scores; let short par fours, long par fours, and short par fives be a major aspect of the course.
• Let there be variety and seduction to the rhythm and flow of holes; let there be respites.
• Let the course and its implicit test show a true champion’s full set of skills.

from Perspectives on Course Design

His philosophy is that the player should see the CHOICES befor him when standing on the tee and that the choice made will be one of risk/reward with a number of surprises along the way. 

[Dale_McCallon]

Philip,

Wonderful post...the quote from the article is a bit leading and I figured there was much more to it that it seemed.  Now it looks like you have really found a more revealing idea of what Mark wants in  a golf course.

[Phil_the_Author]

Thanks Dale,

Here is philosophy about green design:

GREENS CONCEPT

• The greens should stand out as a unique aspect of the course; let them test ones perceptual ability, judgment, decision-making, and emotional poise. Let them be more than bland targets; let them require consideration and be engaging for approach shot-making and greenside recoveries.
• Green contours should reflect the topography of surrounding landforms and let them be seen or at least intuited from considerable distance.
• Intuitive perception from distance is important because green contours should have meaning to the links-style forward release of the ball and therefore to angles of approach which results from lines of play chosen at the tee.
• Aggressive driving lines should be rewarded with angles into green contours which are favorable (e.g. – that can gather a releasing ball toward a desirable position or deflect a release from an undesirable one) or which are easy to gauge (e.g. – that allow a straight-and-true release rather than a deflecting one); conversely, safe driving lines should result in approach angles which turn green contours from supportive or manageable to troublesome or confounding.
• The more severe contours should sometimes divide the very large greens into separate ‘smaller greens’; these contours should be ‘hazard-like’ where considered aim means playing away from them. Leaving such a contour in ones putting line should require ‘recovery-like’ putting skill.
• Let the player come to realize that some contours are to be used while others are to be avoided and that contours are always to be considered.
• Greenside bunkers should be coordinated with the concept of contours and approach angles.
• Emotionally ‘settling’ and ‘unsettling’ visual perspectives should also be coordinated with angles of play, i.e. an aggressive or bold line of playoff a tee should be rewarded with a ‘settling’ approach perspective while a safer play off a tee should contend with an ‘unsettling’ perspective.
• Greens should in general be asymmetrical, with recovery issues differing substantially left vs. right and long vs. short.
• Greens should be large enough to be manageable targets under windy conditions and, as far as possible, should provide for running shots under the wind, especially from the preferred angle of approach.
• Approach issues to greens should be simple to grasp and visually profound enough to dominate the mind. Insofar as possible, greens should be visible from tees, allowing ones intuition to grasp the issues of the hole in question.
• May the heart, soul and intellect of Kingsbarns/Castle Stuart be absorbing and a source of pleasure for all golfers.

from Perspectives on Course Design

In many ways Mark reminds me of how I picture Crump. He has vision, definitive philosophies, an expectation that they will be put into practice and the drive to see it so.

He enjoys driving the equipment and has no qualms about personally shaping a green if he doesn't like the way it was finished.

In many ways he is what everyone of us on GCA wish to be if we had the monies and were grown up...