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David_Elvins

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Re: Tom Morris of St Andrews wins 2008 USGA Book Award
« Reply #25 on: February 19, 2009, 10:23:48 PM »
Supply and Demand.

If they make money from it, good luck to them.  If they don't, they have likely priced it wrongly.  Fairly simple.
Ask not what GolfClubAtlas can do for you; ask what you can do for GolfClubAtlas.

TEPaul

Re: Tom Morris of St Andrews wins 2008 USGA Book Award
« Reply #26 on: February 19, 2009, 11:05:32 PM »
"You would not pay $1400 for "Tom Morris of St Andrews" when you are charging $1,350 for "Tom Paul of Golf Club Atlas". I realize your place in the history of the game but I new John Kenedy and you are no....................

  Anthony"



What are you talking about, Anthony? I never said I was charging $1,350 for some Tom Paul on GOLFCLUBATLAS book. Not even close. I said if you sent ME a check for $1,298 I would personally send you some book you referenced about Tom Paul on Golfclubatlas or somewhere. I didn't even mention it in the first place, you did. I'm going to have to write it first, you know, and that might take me at least $1,298 in time and effort. And I told you I'd handle the S&H, didn't I?

But the real kicker was you were going to save $102 from the difference between that outrageous $1,400 Old Tom Morris book and my $1,298 book and that was gonna buy you about a case and a half of Lancers Effervensce. How can you beat a deal like that?

Charlie Goerges

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Re: Tom Morris of St Andrews wins 2008 USGA Book Award
« Reply #27 on: February 19, 2009, 11:23:55 PM »
Tom,

I'll gladly pay you Tuesday for a hamburger today!
Severally on the occasion of everything that thou doest, pause and ask thyself, if death is a dreadful thing because it deprives thee of this. - Marcus Aurelius

Phil_the_Author

Re: Tom Morris of St Andrews wins 2008 USGA Book Award
« Reply #28 on: February 20, 2009, 08:13:48 AM »
For all those who have been so critical of the pricing consider this... the books priced at $1,400 have been SOLD OUT!

Sounds to me like they understood the market they aimed for very well.

Secondly, "Doc" Malcolm, for those that don't know him, has a passion for the golf course architecture of Scotland, especially in Fife, that at least rivals that of every one of us nuts out here, including mine with Tilly.

If you haven't read his prose before I can vouch that it is a very fine quality and that his research, whether one agrees with his conclusions or not, is meticulous.

In fact the only thing negative that I can say about him is that he is an insane driver. NEVER make the mistake of allowing him to drive you on that nice winding stretch of a road between St. Andrews and Kingsbarns! Especially if there is any other traffic on it that can have even a glimmer of being seen... He will catch and pass it, most likely where it is the most dangerous, at least from his passenger's perspective.

I'm still trying to get the brown stains out of a pair of pants worn during that 2004 car ride!  ;D

Joel Zuckerman

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Re: Tom Morris of St Andrews wins 2008 USGA Book Award
« Reply #29 on: February 20, 2009, 08:45:43 AM »
Getting back to the main purpose of this thread---why this book was awarded the USGA Book Award--I just think it's a bit counterintuitive to give the award to such a "boutique" item, with zero mass-market appeal.

Perhaps you'll find some fault with these analogies, but to me it's like giving the Oscar for Best Picture to some tiny Indie film that was only screened at Sundance, or the Tony for Best Play to something that played off-off-off Broadway for 6 weeks.

If you look at post #12, you'll see the list of all previous winners---most all of them, certainly the ones of the last 8--10 years, are books you can find (or easily order) at the local B&N.

PCCraig

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Re: Tom Morris of St Andrews wins 2008 USGA Book Award
« Reply #30 on: February 20, 2009, 08:52:22 AM »
Getting back to the main purpose of this thread---why this book was awarded the USGA Book Award--I just think it's a bit counterintuitive to give the award to such a "boutique" item, with zero mass-market appeal.

Perhaps you'll find some fault with these analogies, but to me it's like giving the Oscar for Best Picture to some tiny Indie film that was only screened at Sundance, or the Tony for Best Play to something that played off-off-off Broadway for 6 weeks.

If you look at post #12, you'll see the list of all previous winners---most all of them, certainly the ones of the last 8--10 years, are books you can find (or easily order) at the local B&N.

I would agree Joel. It doesn't make a whole lot of sense to me.

However I am curious as to what is actually in the book that makes it so special!
H.P.S.

Phil_the_Author

Re: Tom Morris of St Andrews wins 2008 USGA Book Award
« Reply #31 on: February 20, 2009, 09:02:32 AM »
Joel,

Sorry, but I disagree with the statement, "Getting back to the main purpose of this thread---why this book was awarded the USGA Book Award--I just think it's a bit counterintuitive to give the award to such a "boutique" item, with zero mass-market appeal..."

By that line of reasoning one can't proclaim Tiger Wodds as tghe best golfer because he limits his play to many fewer tournaments that the average touring pro competes in.

This award is there to honor quality and not quantity.

PCCraig

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Re: Tom Morris of St Andrews wins 2008 USGA Book Award
« Reply #32 on: February 20, 2009, 09:24:05 AM »
Joel,

Sorry, but I disagree with the statement, "Getting back to the main purpose of this thread---why this book was awarded the USGA Book Award--I just think it's a bit counterintuitive to give the award to such a "boutique" item, with zero mass-market appeal..."

By that line of reasoning one can't proclaim Tiger Wodds as tghe best golfer because he limits his play to many fewer tournaments that the average touring pro competes in.

This award is there to honor quality and not quantity.


However could you not question how vaild the award is if only a select few people at the USGA are picking their own awards?

It may be a great book, but I suppose I will never see it.
H.P.S.

Joel Zuckerman

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Re: Tom Morris of St Andrews wins 2008 USGA Book Award
« Reply #33 on: February 20, 2009, 09:27:45 AM »
Philip,

Though Tiger plays sporadically in comparison to his Tour brethren, he is the very definition of "mass market appeal."  Witness the breathless proclamations of his return everywhere in the media for the last day or so...never mind ESPN or the Golf Channel...even the NBC Evening News with Brian Williams gave him a 45 second mention.

I'm sure the new award winning book is of very high quality, well-researched, well-written, etc.  But--I'll never know!  I won't buy it due to the prohibitve pricetag, and unless I end up in some rare bookstore somewhere, I doubt I'll ever see it.  IMO, a book that wins an attention--getting award like this one should be somewhat available to interested golfers who would like to chekck it out.....that's all I'm saying.

Phil_the_Author

Re: Tom Morris of St Andrews wins 2008 USGA Book Award
« Reply #34 on: February 20, 2009, 10:31:36 AM »
Joel, I completely understand and agree with your sentiments; I just don't believe that it should be a criteria for judgment in selecting which book to honor.

Pat, You asked, "However could you not question how vaild the award is if only a select few people at the USGA are picking their own awards?"

NO.

This is not a popularity contest. It is an honor that an organization chooses to bestow. How many they have within their organiztion invovled in making the decision has nothing to do with whether it is a worthy award and if the book so honored deserves it.

PCCraig

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Re: Tom Morris of St Andrews wins 2008 USGA Book Award
« Reply #35 on: February 20, 2009, 10:42:31 AM »
Joel, I completely understand and agree with your sentiments; I just don't believe that it should be a criteria for judgment in selecting which book to honor.

Pat, You asked, "However could you not question how vaild the award is if only a select few people at the USGA are picking their own awards?"

NO.

This is not a popularity contest. It is an honor that an organization chooses to bestow. How many they have within their organiztion invovled in making the decision has nothing to do with whether it is a worthy award and if the book so honored deserves it.


I understand your point.

But I also agree with Joel when he gives the example of the Oscars awarding a movie that almost no one sees. If someone makes a movie, and 10 people see it at one showing and they all proclaim it the greatest movie ever, but then no one ever sees it again...how can everyone else be sure it is the greatest movie ever.

It probably is a great book for whatever is in it. But I can't seem to care if I would never be able to read some form of it. So then tell me why this is a "valid" award? Awarding what?
H.P.S.

TEPaul

Re: Tom Morris of St Andrews wins 2008 USGA Book Award
« Reply #36 on: February 20, 2009, 10:48:43 AM »
Philip:

What I am asking is if what Dan Moore said above is true of Malcolm, Crabtree and MacEwan in that they planned on marketing 87 special edition book (that have apparently been sold out) and do they plan to market the rest (395) at the price of $566.00 each as they originally stated?

Or are they essentially trying to conduct some kind of on-going auction for the rest starting them at $1400 or something? If they do sell out the rest (395) for some higher price than they originally stated ($566.00) then I guess good for them but I sure wouldn't consider buying one with that kind of marketing scheme.


Joel Zuckerman:

It seems like your suggesting that the USGA should not considering giving its annual book award to a book with such a small run (500). I don't know if I would agree with that. To me the issue is more about a new book that the authors and publisher try to make $350,000 to $700,000 on with a run of 500 books.

But what the hell, obviously it's a free market system and sellers have a right to try to make as much as they can and buyers certainly have the right to decide if they want to pay what's being asked. On the latter part I'm just speaking for myself----eg no way in hell would I buy a book like that for $1,400 or $566.00.
« Last Edit: February 20, 2009, 10:59:14 AM by TEPaul »

Dan Moore

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Re: Tom Morris of St Andrews wins 2008 USGA Book Award
« Reply #37 on: February 20, 2009, 11:26:51 AM »
Let's deal with some facts.  Yes its expensive but the authors spent 15 years on it and are donating some proceeds from each book to charity one of them founded that supports the dual purpose of providing those in need with powered wheelchairs and promoting the traditions of the game from the time of Old Tom Morris. 

Here is a direct link to order form and pricing information. 

http://www.rhodmcewan.com/tom_morris/pdfs/tom_morris_orderform.pdf

Here are some from the book's website explaining the difference in the two editions and noting a donation will be made to charity for each book sold.  The prices I quoted came from this website which includes online ordering information.  The $1,400 came from a comment on Geoff Shackelford's website and is what the comentator said he was quoted by a local bookstore and may represent a secondary market for the book. 


"THE KEEPER OF THE GREEN ‘395’ EDITION
This Edition is strictly limited to 395 copies
Each copy is numbered and signed by the authors
The main text and appendices run to 350 pages
There are some 325 illustrations, including over 70 full page. Many have not previously been published
The printing is high definition, on quality art paper, to give the best possible illustration reproduction
The page size is 235 x 290mm (91/4 x 111/2 inches)
The binding is half-leather, using top quality morocco leather
Protected in slipcase

THE SUBSCRIBERS ‘87’ EDITION
This Edition is strictly limited to 87 copies, one for every year of Tom Morris’s life
Specification as per THE KEEPER OF THE GREEN ‘395’ EDITION above, with the following additional features:
Bound in full green morocco leather
Gold block to front with gilt tooled emblems to spine in compartments, gilt titling direct, all edges gilt
with dentelles, full leather slipcase with gilt stamp, silk bookmark, top and tail bands, silk endpapers
List of Subscribers’ names
Seven additional illustrative plates
The Royal Bank of Scotland R&A 250th Anniversary commemorative £5 note tipped-in, bearing an image of Tom Morris, the first time a golfer has been portrayed on a British banknote. The last two digits of the
serial number will correspond to the number of the copy
Included in an annexe to rear cover are four high quality facsimile reproductions of important historical
manuscript documents:
i) Tom Morris’s 1864 Open Championship winning card, the earliest extant and the first time
the winner was awarded prize money
ii) Letter from George Glennie of Blackheath to Charles Campbell (of Prestwick Golf Club),
dated 19 October 1860, commenting on the play during the first Open Championship
iii) Draft conditions for the first Open, in the hand of Colonel J. O. Fairlie, the genesis
of the Open Championship
iv) Tom’s resignation letter, dated August 1864, to Prestwick Golf Club
 

APPLICATIONS FOR COPIES WILL BE ACCEPTED IN STRICT SEQUENCE
OF RECEIPT BY THE PUBLISHER

An appropriate donation will be made from the proceeds of this book to ‘KEEPERS OF THE GREEN’, a registered charity based in St Andrews. The charity provides powered mobility to the needy, as well as promoting the ethos and traditions of the game of golf as they were during the era of Tom Morris."

And here is a summary of the contents.

"Tom Morris of St Andrews

The content of this book is the result of more than 15 years of research. Much new and hitherto unknown material is revealed.

We have been privileged to have had unfettered access to the respective archives of the Morris, Morrow, Hunter and Rusack families, both in the UK and USA.

We have received help and cooperation from all the golf clubs, institutions and individuals which have been approached for assistance. In particular, The Royal and Ancient Golf Club of St Andrews has been unstinting in helping and supporting this project.

Topics covered include:

In-depth analysis of Tom, his antecedents and contemporaries in golf.
Tom’s rise from obscurity to national and international renown.

New detailed insight into Tom’s forebears, his family and the tragedies he endured for most of his adult life.

Tom’s contribution to the game and his influence in the context of his time have been completely re-assessed. In a society obsessed by class distinction, Tom’s changing status makes for fascinating reading.

His son Tommy’s ascendancy in golf and his ultimately tragic life is covered in-depth, as well as the crucial role both he and Davie Strath played in popularising the game.

The importance of the challenge matches between Tom and Willie Park in the period 1855-1870.

James Hunter’s (Tom’s son-in-law) success in the timber business in Georgia and Alabama which transformed the Morris family’s financial situation.

A new appreciation is given of the part played in the development of the game in the 19th century by the leading golf clubs of the day, particularly Prestwick, Royal Liverpool and Royal North Devon.
Corrections to errors and myths, repeated over the years by writers and observers."
« Last Edit: February 20, 2009, 12:07:07 PM by Dan Moore »
"Is there any other game which produces in the human mind such enviable insanity."  Bernard Darwin

Dan Moore

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Re: Tom Morris of St Andrews wins 2008 USGA Book Award
« Reply #38 on: February 20, 2009, 11:28:02 AM »
By the way Tom how much are you anticipating the 3 volume 1,600 page Flynn book will cost? 
"Is there any other game which produces in the human mind such enviable insanity."  Bernard Darwin

Lyne Morrison

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Re: Tom Morris of St Andrews wins 2008 USGA Book Award
« Reply #39 on: February 20, 2009, 06:24:52 PM »

Dan - thanks for the additional feedback. It does appear to be a unique and special publication.

If a copy was held for public access at an appropriate location it would be wonderful to drop by and have a browse one day.

Cheers -- Lyne

Sean_A

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Re: Tom Morris of St Andrews wins 2008 USGA Book Award
« Reply #40 on: February 20, 2009, 07:24:35 PM »
I don't see why such a high priced book should be excluded from the USGA awards unless the USGA states that this is the case - which they obviously didn't.  I think its a shame there isn't a more affordable version.  Perhaps this one area the USGA could help out on in their role of preserving the history of the game. Sort of a Classics of Golf deal.

Ciao
New plays planned for 2024: Nothing

Neil_Crafter

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Re: Tom Morris of St Andrews wins 2008 USGA Book Award
« Reply #41 on: February 20, 2009, 07:41:51 PM »
While the category is best golf book then I think it doesn't matter whether it is a $1 or a $1000 book. However, in a number of ways it is unfair to compare this book with a book that is retailing for $40. So perhaps there should be some different categories, such as Best Limited Edition book etc.

Dan Moore

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Re: Tom Morris of St Andrews wins 2008 USGA Book Award
« Reply #42 on: February 20, 2009, 11:55:15 PM »
We can certainly hope that once the special editions are sold and the charity funded that a lower priced version will be made available. 
"Is there any other game which produces in the human mind such enviable insanity."  Bernard Darwin

PCCraig

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Re: Tom Morris of St Andrews wins 2008 USGA Book Award
« Reply #43 on: February 21, 2009, 10:06:52 AM »
We can certainly hope that once the special editions are sold and the charity funded that a lower priced version will be made available. 

I would find that doubtful, no?
H.P.S.

Joel Zuckerman

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Re: Tom Morris of St Andrews wins 2008 USGA Book Award
« Reply #44 on: February 21, 2009, 10:27:31 AM »

Joel Zuckerman:

It seems like your suggesting that the USGA should not considering giving its annual book award to a book with such a small run (500). I don't know if I would agree with that.

Tom--It's not that I don't think the USGA shouldn't consider a book like this one..it's more that to me (and to most others I'm sure) the award winning book came completely out of left field.  It kind of surprised me, is really my point. 

I look at this from a personal standpoint---I held out hopes that my Dye Book might have had a shot at this award.  Pete's has had a semi-contentious relationship with the USGA over the decades, and no Dye Course has held the Open, but on the other hand, his work has hosted Sr. Opens, Women's Opens, US Ams, Mid-Ams, Women's Ams, etc., so I thought we were definitely in the running.

My new book printed 36,000 first-edition copies--an extraordinarily high number for a book of this type.  (Size, price, weight. etc.)  The normal press run would have been about 5,000, which is still a standard run for a golf book not written by a Reilley, Feinstein, Dodson, etc.

  So--I figured we would beat (or more likely, be beaten) by a similar "mass market" book--IE, a book that was in the public discourse, had some notoriety, etc.  Put it this way:  I doubt more than 5% of the golf writers around the world, or the regular habitues of GCA.com had even heard of this book before a few days ago....and those two groups are the ones that would theoretically be in the know!

Dan Moore

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Re: Tom Morris of St Andrews wins 2008 USGA Book Award
« Reply #45 on: February 21, 2009, 03:28:52 PM »
We can certainly hope that once the special editions are sold and the charity funded that a lower priced version will be made available. 

I would find that doubtful, no?
\\

I think it would depend on if there is a market for the book.   Winning the USGA book would seem to help.  I would think it would casily sell 5,000 copies if priced under $100. 
"Is there any other game which produces in the human mind such enviable insanity."  Bernard Darwin

Neil_Crafter

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Re: Tom Morris of St Andrews wins 2008 USGA Book Award
« Reply #46 on: February 21, 2009, 03:38:02 PM »
Dan
I wouldn't be happy if they decided to print a low price 'trade' edition after I'd stumped up all that money for one of the limited editions. Assuming of course I had bought a copy - and I have not. Normally these sort of things are done at the same time, so there is a clear choice. In this case you had a choice between a very limited edition and a normal limited edition. Which is pretty standard practice for all the books on golf published by Grant Books over the years, so its not all that unusual, except for the rather exorbitant pricing.

Dan Moore

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Re: Tom Morris of St Andrews wins 2008 USGA Book Award
« Reply #47 on: February 21, 2009, 03:48:29 PM »
As I said one can hope, heck I'd probably feel better about a $250 version.  On the other hand, given the markets these days, if they don't release another version the original might be a better investment over 20 yeras than my equity funds.   
"Is there any other game which produces in the human mind such enviable insanity."  Bernard Darwin

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