[Ed Homsey]

I would bet you that this is a question that no one would have raised, or been interested in, in 1900.  Only us modernist ponder about such things.  You can read the 1900 newspaper and mags about the opening of new courses, and not find a single reference to whom designed it.  I'm with Sean Able on this, and I wish the rest of you good luck in your search for a beginning.

[Joe Bausch]

I would bet you that this is a question that no one would have raised, or been interested in, in 1900.  Only us modernist ponder about such things.  You can read the 1900 newspaper and mags about the opening of new courses, and not find a single reference to whom designed it.  I'm with Sean Able on this, and I wish the rest of you good luck in your search for a beginning.

Ed, in my experience you are dead right about this.  This most you typically got back in those years was a "golf expert" laid out the course.

[Paul Stephenson]

"As to Macdonald I think he distinguished his effort at the National because it incorporated pre-conceived hole designs...."


Dan:

I have a feeling what you just said there, "preconceived", may have a good deal to do with what and how he saw himself as different from what came before and why he may've referred to himself as the first architect.

But were there not copies of "pre-conceived" hole designs before Macdonald?  I'm certain there was more than one redan pre-Mac.  If that is your litmus then I would say no he wasn't.

[Bradley Anderson]

Tom:

You'll recall that I proposed the idea at Penn State that the first level of golf architecture was the laying out of the targets and starting points on the property.

If we look at this from the point of what the golfer may "touch" the golf ball (originally) and improve his lie (on the tee), the idea that architecture begins with the layout is easily accepted.

The hole represents the interrupt point from nature. The distance between the hole to the next tee is the only distance in the course where the golfer may carry the ball and then start from an ideal lie of his making. From the tee the golfer reintroduces himself to nature. As such, the path dictated by man from the golf hole to the next tee is probably the first example of what you would define as architecture as the architect is selecting which points of the land are able to be traversed outside of play.

Kyle,

I'm not sure if this is helpful or not, but on the original links, the teeing ground was adjacent to where you holed out, "not nearer than 4 yards to the hole."

[Rich Goodale]

I would vote for Robertson, based on the fact that the was the first person that I know of to have been hired by an outside club specifically to lay out a course (Carnoustie, 1840).

PS--contrary to what Ed Homsey says above, there are numerous references to course designers in UK and Irish newspapers in the 1885-1910 period, dominated, of course, by references to Old Tom Morris.

[Kyle Harris]

Tom:

You'll recall that I proposed the idea at Penn State that the first level of golf architecture was the laying out of the targets and starting points on the property.

If we look at this from the point of what the golfer may "touch" the golf ball (originally) and improve his lie (on the tee), the idea that architecture begins with the layout is easily accepted.

The hole represents the interrupt point from nature. The distance between the hole to the next tee is the only distance in the course where the golfer may carry the ball and then start from an ideal lie of his making. From the tee the golfer reintroduces himself to nature. As such, the path dictated by man from the golf hole to the next tee is probably the first example of what you would define as architecture as the architect is selecting which points of the land are able to be traversed outside of play.

Kyle,

I'm not sure if this is helpful or not, but on the original links, the teeing ground was adjacent to where you holed out, "not nearer than 4 yards to the hole."

Bradley,

I think that changed relatively early in the 19th century. It is still helpful, since it still defines the hole as the "reset" point for integration with the natural features of the golf course.

[TEPaul]

"But were there not copies of "pre-conceived" hole designs before Macdonald?  I'm certain there was more than one redan pre-Mac.  If that is your litmus then I would say no he wasn't."

PaulS:

I don't believe so. I think you will find that the 4th hole at NGLA (the Redan) was the very first preconceived imitation of the 15th at NB complete with the name. If there was one done purposefully before that I'm sure all those interested in the history of golf architecture would love to know where it was.

However, that cannot be said for some of the other so-called template holes Macdonald used at NGLA. For instance, I have found about 2-3 examples of an "Alps" hole or a hole named that in America previous to NGLA. I'm not saying those ones were supposed to be a preconceived copy of the famous counterpart abroad but they did have the same name.

[TEPaul]

"The most you typically got back in those years was a "golf expert" laid out the course."

Joe:

You're right about that. Back in the late 1890s and the first decade or so of the 20th century you surely do see that term "golf experts" or just "experts" used prevalently in newspapers and such as well as in internal club recordings such as board and committee meetings.

For instance in some of the board and committee meeting minutes of Merion from very early 1911 (not the ones from the middle of 1910) you certainly see the mention that a committee of "experts" have been formed to lay out the course. And who were those minutes referring too? Wilson and his committee, very good golfers all!

I realize David Moriarty in his piece "The Missing Faces of Merion" tried to claim when we said this that they were only referring to Macdonald and Whigam and perhaps HH Barker but that is just not the case or the facts.

The fact is in those early days when most anyone referred to "experts" it was invariably referring to people who were very good golfers, period, whether they were professional or amateur. Architectural experience seemed to have little to do with it. Apparently the prevalent thinking back then was if you were good enough to play very good golf you should be able to basically know how or figure out how to design a decent golf course.

With men such as Herbert Leeds, H.C and W.C Fownes, Hugh Wilson and George Crump they were definitely right!

[Joe Bausch]

Tom,

Here's a funny one where the full name of the expert used to lay out a course was not known.  He is simply called Arnold.  Hell, I don't know if that was Arnold Woods, Arnold Palmer, or Arnold the Pig!

This from the April 13, 1904 edition of the New York Sun.

[TEPaul]

Joe:

I have no idea who the professional Arnold was either but both he and the course he probably laid out in and around New York and Connecticut back then sounds to me like the kind of thing that disappointed and infuriated C.B. Macdonald and inspired him to build NGLA as an example of excellence in American architecture. It sounds like Arden Garden or whatever it was called and Sound Beach were the kind of course that Macdonald said, "Makes the very soul of golf shriek." 

[JMEvensky]

Tom,

Here's a funny one where the full name of the expert used to lay out a course was not known.  He is simply called Arnold.  Hell, I don't know if that was Arnold Woods, Arnold Palmer, or Arnold the Pig!

This from the April 13, 1904 edition of the New York Sun.

I bet that Tom Paul not only knows who Arnold was,but has some personal anecdote.Probably involving FuFu,MarMar,The Supremes,and the lovely and talented Fern.

I'm convinced there are less than 6 degrees of separation between TEP and anyone who has ever lived.

[Joe Bausch]

Tom,

Here's a funny one where the full name of the expert used to lay out a course was not known.  He is simply called Arnold.  Hell, I don't know if that was Arnold Woods, Arnold Palmer, or Arnold the Pig!

This from the April 13, 1904 edition of the New York Sun.

I bet that Tom Paul not only knows who Arnold was,but has some personal anecdote.Probably involving FuFu,MarMar,The Supremes,and the lovely and talented Fern.

I'm convinced there are less than 6 degrees of separation between TEP and anyone who has ever lived.

A couple of no longer participating members here might say it is 666 degrees of separation. 

[JMEvensky]

Tom,

Here's a funny one where the full name of the expert used to lay out a course was not known.  He is simply called Arnold.  Hell, I don't know if that was Arnold Woods, Arnold Palmer, or Arnold the Pig!

This from the April 13, 1904 edition of the New York Sun.

I bet that Tom Paul not only knows who Arnold was,but has some personal anecdote.Probably involving FuFu,MarMar,The Supremes,and the lovely and talented Fern.

I'm convinced there are less than 6 degrees of separation between TEP and anyone who has ever lived.

A couple of no longer participating members here might say it is 666 degrees of separation. 

Maybe even the same for some still participating.

[TEPaul]

"A couple of no longer participating members here might say it is 666 degrees of separation.   "


Don't you worry about that. In my life and times I've met the Devil, actually more than once (he's clever enough to come in various personas) and I can tell you unsweringly (even though that's a relative term ) that he (they) is a total asshole! 
 

[RSLivingston_III]

This has been a very interesting thread. I had not considered wether or not laying out a course and designing in a requirement to move dirt was a criteria for being an architect.
Or what the timespan that layout needed to exist to truely have been laid out.

[Peter Pallotta]

A thought that just occurred to me:

There must have been a point in the past when someone who we'd now call a golf architect first thought of himself as golf architect (even if by another name), and who thought consciously of the work he was doing on the ground as a directed activity with a specific goal that could be achieved in an ideal way, or as close to an ideal way as possible. 

I'd say that this was the point when golf course architecture first began (even if those who came a decade or two or ten decades later ridiculed the manifestations of that first conscious ideal).
Robertson sounds about right.... 

Peter

[TEPaul]

"There must have been a point in the past when someone who we'd now call a golf architect first thought of himself as golf architect (even if by another name), and who thought consciously of the work he was doing on the ground as a directed activity with a specific goal that could be achieved in an ideal way, or as close to an ideal way as possible."


PeterP:

Would you say, allow or stipulate that it might be possible, reasonable or historically logical given your remark above that that someone may NOT have thought of himself as an architect at the time for a variety of reasons, but given the flow and flux of the history and evolution of architecture, had we been able to tell him at some point in his future or ours, that, YES indeed, it all looks like HE just may've been the very first golf course architect, that at least he may've given it some consideration?

I think that somehow this is the way it worked, and yes, I think our man was Alan Roberston whether he knew it at the time or not.

Macdonald was a man of St. Andrews and there is no way he didn't know this about Alan Roberston, Old Tom Morris and the rest as it is all written in his book. But for some reason he saw things differently at some point and he called himself the first golf architect, as far as he could see. I think there is more to his opinon than just an "over-excersized" ego, and that what he said, and what he was trying to do bears some serious analysis. 

[RSLivingston_III]

I don't have the documentation, but seem to recall that Morris might have moved dirt when he worked on the Old Course. If he did is he the first to do so that we know of?

[Dan Moore]

Ralph, 

The 18th green which Old Tom built in 1866 involved bringing in landfill to build up the plateau for the green which was built on the site of an old burial ground.  I don't know if clearing the land of overgrowth counts as earthmoving, but Robertson and Old Tom did plenty of that between 1850 and 1900. 

Peter,

Old Tom reportedly spent months walking the dunes at Prestwick trying to fit 18 holes into the available land.  He concluded only 12 proper holes would fit and proceeded to build a 12 hole course famous for hosting the first professional open tournament. 

Rich,  I'd love to hear more about what Allan Roberston did at Carnoustie in 1840 if they is any info available on that. 

I'm sticking with a definition of architect that involves the engagement of someone for their expertise to plan and/or lay-out a golf links.  By that definition Allan Roberston at Carnoustie seems to be the first documented architect. 

As to what Macdonald meant, I think I'll reread what he said on the topic in Scotland's Gift while the snow falls here in Chicago this weekend. 

[TEPaul]

Ralph:

From what I've always heard Alan Robertson created at least the 17th green and probably the Road Hole bunker before Tom Morris built anything on that course. I believe that's why Robertson has been referred to over the years as the first golf course architect.


"I would vote for Robertson, based on the fact that the was the first person that I know of to have been hired by an outside club specifically to lay out a course (Carnoustie, 1840)."

Rich:

I wasn't aware of that. Very interesting. Do you suppose it involved any significant construction at all at that early date? Perhaps something like his reputed building of the 17th green and Road Hole bunker at TOC around 1848?

[Peter Pallotta]

TE - I think the question you asked me in post 41 is the critical and deciding one. I could've expressed my view more simply, just by saying that the birth of an art comes when the artist knows that he's making art, i.e. when he consciously apires to making art.  But then your question turns that upside down, because of course we today might consider something as art -- and rightly consider it so -- even if the person who created it never thought about it in those terms.  A tough question...

On Macdonald, he may have leaned towards the first kind of thinking, and was suggesting that he was the first to aspire specifically and consciously to creating gca based on the ideal and conscious principles of gca....

Boy, a tough question

Peter

[Jim_Kennedy]

Macdonald was a man of St. Andrews and there is no way he didn't know this about Alan Roberston, Old Tom Morris and the rest as it is all written in his book. But for some reason he saw things differently at some point and he called himself the first golf architect, as far as he could see. I think there is more to his opinon than just an "over-excersized" ego, and that what he said, and what he was trying to do bears some serious analysis

Tom,
Macdonald didn't call himself the first golf architect, only that he believed his building of a classical golf course here in America that compared with the best from abroad, was an original effort at establishing 'good' golf architecture, not the profession itself.
He acknowledged others who preceded him in laying out courses, but he was convinced that many golf courses had only a few holes of note, and I  believe he figured he was going to show everyone what architecture could be.

[TEPaul]

"I could've expressed my view more simply,"


Peter:

I think I could've too. I hope you got my drift in that post. The way I wrote it probably was sort of confusing and vague. But what I meant was that whatever Robertson did or did differently than anyone who came before him might've been the kinds of things that he himself did not realize at the time were things for which he would be considered, even if perhaps a number of years later, as golf's first real golf course architect.

[TEPaul]

"Tom,
Macdonald didn't call himself the first golf architect, only that he believed his building of a classical golf course here in America that compared with the best from abroad, was an original effort at establishing 'good' golf architecture, not the profession itself."


Jim:

I'll get his own remarks out of his book and quote them here but my recollection is that Macdonald called himself the first golf course architect. Obviously he knew perfectly well that plenty of others before him had created golf courses of a form but apparently he felt he was the first to do something with architecture (apparently NGLA) that was different enough than anything that came before it that gave him some right and some cause to call himself the first golf course architect.

I'm just trying to figure out as specifically as possible what that was that led him to say that.

[Jim_Kennedy]

Tom,
Let me save you the trouble, I'm trying to become a better typist.

"I was intensely interested, and it was from this discussion I was urged to carry out the idea of building a classical golf course in America, one which would eventually compare favorably with championship links abroad and serve as an incentive to the elevation of the game in America. I believe  this was the first effort at establishing golf architecture-at least there is no record I can find preceding it." -CBM 

This was preceded by his writing about the ideal course and his reference to the "Best Hole Discussion". When taken in context, and that might include reading the whole chapter, I don't think he had anything in mind other than the architecture itself, and the fact that "He" was the guy capable of building it.

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