The Forced Carry Over Water...

[Chris Cupit]

Anthony:

I am just telling you what Pete Dye told me in the 1980's ... he does not like to have forced carries over water, and especially not forced carries from the fairways.  95% of the time his water hazards are to the side, and don't require a carry from the forward tees.

You're right there are a couple of exceptions to that at The Honors Course ... which surprised me because he built it right at the same time he told me his philosophy on the subject.

Anthony and Tom,

The Honors does have some forced carries and when my wife plays she and I play there.  The forward tee on 7 allows her a flanking approach, #8 she can go straight at the hole without having any carry over water.  Her approach to #9 is difficult because of the water and she can't hold the green--no tee shot carry though.  #15 is tough with the creek crossing although she can lay up and the creek isn't very wide and she can still run the ball up by landing well short of the green.  #16 she can bail a little left.

The hole hat kills her though is #14--forced carry over the fescue and bunker--either hits the green and rolls over or a topped lost ball.  She would rather see the ball splash than disappear and have to look for it

Two other thoughts.  Jennifer doesn't hate all forced carries but those off the tee can ruin a hole right out of the box.  A forced carry later in the hole for her builds some suspense and she enjoys having to strategize how she will set herself up for the "all or nothing" shot which can be kind of exciting/fun.  But, a forced carry tee shot can kill a hole pretty quick.

I think on his eden hole at NGLA Macdonald thought he improved on the original by having a pond/forced carry that would prevent topped or running shots from ending up near the green.  Mac couldn't be wrong could he?

[Mike Bowline]

Remember the stupid “Worst Golfer in America” contest sponsored by Golf Digest about 10 years ago?

The climactic final round was played at TPC Sawgrass, and the “winner” (the guy who shot the highest score, Anthony somebody) could not get the ball onto the green on #17 from the tee. Nor could he from the drop area – not even after about seven or eight tries.

So what did he do? He putted the ball around to the left rear access walkway and putted the ball onto the green, for a cool 47 (or something like that) score for that hole alone. If the final had been played at Coeur d’Alene with the island hole with the only access by boat, he NEVER would have finished.

I believe, for the sake of the beginner/poor player, there should always be an alternate route that does not require the water to be carried. Remember what it was like when you were learning the game.

[Garland Bayley]

...If the final had been played at Coeur d’Alene with the island hole with the only access by boat, he NEVER would have finished....

I beg to differ. The reason he couldn't succeed at Sawgrass was that his ball flight was too low to hold the island. At Couer d'Alene all he would have had to do is land one of his tee shots in the bunker on the raft the green is built on.

[Adam Clayman]

The use of water for aesthetics is not always pleasing to the eye.
 The zero plane is not something one wants in heavy doses, or, on certain sites.

Clearly Anthony needs to go to a different rehab.

[Pete Lavallee]

Thanks for a very good topic Mike. Adam makes a good point that a pond is really only 2 dimensional. MacKenzie often touted the beauty of driving over a rugged bunker, rather than long grass; the real difference being that the more 3 dimensional the hazard , the greater the thrill in overcoming it. Salt water hazards are inherhently more 3 dimensional than fresh, thus the most pleasing to overcome; surely even a Scotsman wouldn't mind plunking a ball or two at 15 thru 17 at Cypress Point. Creeks also provide some degree of the third dimension; often players can try to recover from one, ala Rayes Creek at AN. The degree of recoverability from below the cliffs at Pebble to other natural water hazards surely adds to their beauty. There is nearly zero chance for recovery from a man made pond; their only reason is to intimidate the golfer and punish his poor effort, with a full stroke; probably spurned from a desire to inject some excitement into Elite Events.

[Scott Warren]

I believe, for the sake of the beginner/poor player, there should always be an alternate route that does not require the water to be carried. Remember what it was like when you were learning the game.

Then that played should not play at Sawgrass. You can't design every single course with the lowest common denominator in mind. If they built an island green on some suburban course, I could understand the complaints somewhat, but this is a course that was designed specifically for tournament golf...

[Mike Sweeney]

is the bane of golf course architecture in America.

[Mike Bowline]

...If the final had been played at Coeur d’Alene with the island hole with the only access by boat, he NEVER would have finished....

I beg to differ. The reason he couldn't succeed at Sawgrass was that his ball flight was too low to hold the island. At Couer d'Alene all he would have had to do is land one of his tee shots in the bunker on the raft the green is built on.

So why didn't he just land his screaming-low-flying ball in the front right bunker at TPC?

Garland, you say "all he would have had to do is land one of his tee shots in the bunker on the raft the green is built on." This guy couldn't have done that if he tried 100 times.

[Anthony Gray]

I believe, for the sake of the beginner/poor player, there should always be an alternate route that does not require the water to be carried. Remember what it was like when you were learning the game.

Then that played should not play at Sawgrass. You can't design every single course with the lowest common denominator in mind. If they built an island green on some suburban course, I could understand the complaints somewhat, but this is a course that was designed specifically for tournament golf...

  Exactly

[Kalen Braley]

...If the final had been played at Coeur d’Alene with the island hole with the only access by boat, he NEVER would have finished....

I beg to differ. The reason he couldn't succeed at Sawgrass was that his ball flight was too low to hold the island. At Couer d'Alene all he would have had to do is land one of his tee shots in the bunker on the raft the green is built on.

So why didn't he just land his screaming-low-flying ball in the front right bunker at TPC?

Garland, you say "all he would have had to do is land one of his tee shots in the bunker on the raft the green is built on." This guy couldn't have done that if he tried 100 times.

Mike,

When I played CDA several years ago, there was a low "retaining" wall on the back side of the floating green about 2 feet high.  The rule of thumb was that just about anything that lands on the floating island stays on it. 

Additionally, the island is pretty big in comparison to the 17th at TPC, so I don't doubt he could have gotten one of his shots to stay on it just as long as it landed on it first.

[Mike Hendren]

is the bane of golf course architecture in America.

Mike, just what exactly is your point?

I submit this hole, sacred though it might be, would be better with no water and a fronting trench-like flat bottomed bunker.  

WHY MUST THE ARCHITECT EXTRACT TWO SHOTS AND THE COST OF A NEW GOLF BALL FROM THE PLAYER WHO FAILS TO MAKE THE CARRY, HOWEVER MODEST IT MIGHT BE?  THE ARCHITECT SHOULD  MITIGATE - NOT ENHANCE THE NEED FOR THE PLAYER TO RE-TEE IN MY OPINION.  I DON'T MIND BEING PUNISHED  -  IT'S THE PILING ON THAT ANNOYS ME.

(Rant not directed at Mr. Sweeney, who is a fine fellow indeed

Mike

[Anthony Gray]

is the bane of golf course architecture in America.

Mike, just what exactly is your point?

I submit this hole, sacred though it might be, would be better with no water and a fronting trench-like flat bottomed bunker.  

WHY MUST THE ARCHITECT EXTRACT TWO SHOTS AND THE COST OF A NEW GOLF BALL FROM THE PLAYER WHO FAILS TO MAKE THE CARRY, HOWEVER MODEST IT MIGHT BE?  THE ARCHITECT SHOULD  MITIGATE - NOT ENHANCE THE NEED FOR THE PLAYER TO RE-TEE IN MY OPINION.  I DON'T MIND BEING PUNISHED  -  IT'S THE PILING ON THAT ANNOYS ME.

(Rant not directed at Mr. Sweeney, who is a fine fellow indeed

Mike

  There is plenty of room left of the pond to use the putter. I love the way Mr. Sweeney gave the golfer an alternate route to the green.

  Anthony

[Eric Smith]

is the bane of golf course architecture in America.

Discuss.


Double-Bogey

Dub:

The forced carry, specifically the pond or lagoon in front of the tee box, played a starring role on a recent golf vacation.  My back started to go out on me during the 4th round and I began topping tee shots like a madman.  I just couldn't make the move without lightning bolts rushing down my spine (cue violin ).

There was hope however.  After a topped tee shot (on holes without water off the tee) , I routinely willed myself to stay down on it and knocked my 2-wood back out there in play - keeping me in the match with my nemesis who was on cruise control with his 'bogey barrage'  .

The courses down in Hilton Head have quite a bit of these ponds & lagoons just off the tee, so when I played a hole with one of these design features, and topped it, well that made my effort to compete with said bogey barrage that much more difficult.  One hole I topped three consecutive tee balls into the drink, so I'm really good at it now.  It got so bad I nearly considered using putter off of the tee as Anthony mentions above, but thought otherwise after I noticed a likeness of CBM appearing in a cloud formation overhead.

Point being that on holes without the forced carry, I had a chance at recovery from a topped tee shot and could still be competitive.  I appreciated that at the time and thought about higher handicap players and shorter hitters in particular who may be intimidated by this feature.

This is an extreme example I know as it’s likely no one playing their normal game would hit so many of these shots in a round .  It is not a normal situation for me and those particular hazards are never in my thoughts 99% of the time I play those courses.

I am seeking to remedy the back thing very soon and in the future do promise to share better stories than my multi-topping.

Sincerely,

Triple

[Tim Bert]

Mike - The carry over water?  Not the problem.

I think the problem is a set-up with water crossing a long, par 4 fairway at just the point to where you can drive the ball, forcing one to lay-up with a longer than necessary shot and then guarding the optimal lay-up or run-up area with a useless bunker thereby forcing all players with or without the ability to either go great-guns at the green or lay-up so far back that the hole just becomes pointless.

Not on any particular hole, mind you - just speaking in general terms.

[Anthony Gray]

  Is the problem the forced carry or the water? TOC has several forced carries off the tee on the front.

  Anthony

[Kirk Gill]

There's certainly a place for the forced carry in golf - the "all or nothing" shot. As a representative of the high-handicapper population, we understand that a lost ball is in the mix, and usually have a "lose-able" ball somewhere in the bag for just such a situation. Sometimes of course you whip out the new proV just to show that you are confident, which makes losing it hurt all the more.

What really throws me is the proliferation of such holes, and the fact that the amount of water on a course is often used as a marketing point. I don't understand how an over-abuncance of water holes makes a course better. It makes it more difficult, I suppose, and there is large number of golfers who buy into the "harder is better" mentality, even if their game isn't up to it. Too many water holes, even if the water is used laterally and not just for forced carries, just turns a round of golf into an endless slog for such players. Of course that doesn't keep those of a masochistic bent from playing these places anyway.

[Eric Smith]

To me, the term itself implies a painful experience, "forced carry". 

Try "overwater odyssey" - emotes a tranquil Tahitian bungalow experience.

or

"vertical liberation" - fredom to fly your Top-Flite to the moon.


May help with the pre shot psych-out.

[Anthony Gray]

To me, the term itself implies a painful experience, "forced carry". 

Try "overwater odyssey" - emotes a tranquil Tahitian bungalow experience.

or

"vertical liberation" - fredom to fly your Top-Flite to the moon.


May help with the pre shot psych-out.

  "Vertical Liberation". Can you say that on the air?

  Anthony

[Eric Smith]

Used that in your pick up lines at WVU, eh Anthony? 

"Hey, wanna go out for some vertical liberation?"

She thought you were asking her to play Bay Hill. 

[Anthony Gray]

Used that in your pick up lines at WVU, eh Anthony? 

"Hey, wanna go out for some vertical liberation?"

She thought you were asking her to play Bay Hill. 

  Vic would ask...You got any italian in ya?

[Garland Bayley]

...If the final had been played at Coeur d’Alene with the island hole with the only access by boat, he NEVER would have finished....

I beg to differ. The reason he couldn't succeed at Sawgrass was that his ball flight was too low to hold the island. At Couer d'Alene all he would have had to do is land one of his tee shots in the bunker on the raft the green is built on.

So why didn't he just land his screaming-low-flying ball in the front right bunker at TPC?

Garland, you say "all he would have had to do is land one of his tee shots in the bunker on the raft the green is built on." This guy couldn't have done that if he tried 100 times.

Sigh. There is a difference between a bunker almost as wide as the green, and a bunker that is hardly there.

[Anthony Gray]

  Garland,

  How would you play each of these holes?

  Frank Discussion

[Garland Bayley]

I have no intention of playing either course. However, I don't believe I would have much trouble making the carry and stopping the ball if I did. I would have trouble coming over the top and pulling the ball to the right into the water or slicing the ball to the left into the water.

[Anthony Gray]

I have no intention of playing either course. However, I don't believe I would have much trouble making the carry and stopping the ball if I did. I would have trouble coming over the top and pulling the ball to the right into the water or slicing the ball to the left into the water.

  Garland,

  TPC 17 plays at about 115 from our tees. It is a bigger target than looks on TV. The angle is different than the pros. My money is on you hitting the green. The green slopes from back to front  so your ball would stop. I know I can coach you to a par. But if you make par or better I want to see a cannon ball into the water. Low handicappers never cannon ball into the water after a par..thus we do have more fun.

  KP Rocks,

  Anthony

[Mike Sweeney]

Mike, just what exactly is your point?

I submit this hole, sacred though it might be, would be better with no water and a fronting trench-like flat bottomed bunker.  

WHY MUST THE ARCHITECT EXTRACT TWO SHOTS AND THE COST OF A NEW GOLF BALL FROM THE PLAYER WHO FAILS TO MAKE THE CARRY, HOWEVER MODEST IT MIGHT BE?  THE ARCHITECT SHOULD  MITIGATE - NOT ENHANCE THE NEED FOR THE PLAYER TO RE-TEE IN MY OPINION.  I DON'T MIND BEING PUNISHED  -  IT'S THE PILING ON THAT ANNOYS ME.

(Rant not directed at Mr. Sweeney, who is a fine fellow indeed

Mike

Bogey,

This is an architecture related response. I will try to go slow for The Hillbilly Tour participants. 

From 1900 and 1925, Ivy League teams won 20 out of 25 college football National Championships! Princeton, still, has actually won more recognized college football national championships (24) than anyone else. Yale has won 19. Yale's famous football coach, Walter Camp, is commonly referred to as the "Father of American Football." See: http://www.secsportsfan.com/sec-vs-ivy-league-football.html

The Ivy's still play football basically the same way. It is the OTHER schools (see Boston College and Tennessee! ) that have changed. The Ivy's seem pretty comfortable (arrogant!?) that their season ends in November.

Yale Golf Course was finished in 1925.  Now with 83+ years of history, play and lost balls, the 9th at Yale is certainly not going to change. Not everyone needs to play Yale, and Yale does not need to lower their SAT scores or fill in a pond so that a bunch of Hillbillies can attend THE Game (http://www.the-game.org/) or shoot a lower score on Yale Golf Course!

PS The Author of this post did not apply to Yale as an undergraduate for the obvious reasons. 

PPS There is a drop zone short and left of the green on the 9th at Yale, which pretty much cancels the crap written above because there is no way that MacRaynor put that in there.