[Anthony Gray]

  Water does add aesthetics to the golf hole, Why not use it to provide strateegery . The more of it the better.

  Anthony

I have no problem with the use of water for strategic purposes.  Just not to keen on it for penal purposes.

Mike

  I believe Ran says the same thing. Water does have finality. But I do like it for aesthetic reasons over carries over brush or waste land which are equally penal. The problem is when the carry places a demand on the golfer that he may not be ablle to accomplish and thus is unfair.

  Anthony

[Garland Bayley]

Cypress point #'s 15 & 16.  Mauna Kai #3.

Seriously though, when one plays a course that's a 5 or less on the Doak scale, more often than not it's the water hole that sticks in one's memory.

I would point out that CPC #16 is not a forced carry over water as AM discusses playing it with a putter only in The Spirit of St. Andrews.

[Tim Leahy]

17 at TPC or PGA West are great holes that have produced some memorable shots and if played from the proper tee are a great part of the courses they are part of. I wouldn't want every hole to be that way but they are the best tests of one's skills you can get. Do or die!

[Mike Hendren]

And why just "in America"? Where are you placed on forced carries over water in Great Britain, Ireland, Australia and Asia?

With the exception of The Old Course, The Eden, Carnoustie, Kilspindie and North Berwick West Links, my only experience is in America.  

Mike

[Anthony Gray]

Anthony:

Pete Dye avoids forced carries over water more than most architects.  He has plenty of water in play to the sides of his holes, and off the back and sometimes the middle tee, but he rarely ever puts a stream or a pond right across the line of play, because he knows exactly what that does to a woman who can only carry the ball 65-70 yards.

  Tom,

 At his most highly ranked courses there are many forced carries over water. The Honors...7 8 9 15 16   Sawgrass... 1 2 4 8 11 15 16 17 18  Teeth of the Dog 5 7 15 16 18  even Whistling Straits has a double carry on one hole. And it is a "links course".

  Anthony

[Garland Bayley]

  Water does add aesthetics to the golf hole, Why not use it to provide strateegery . The more of it the better.

  Anthony

Because Anthony, traditionally strateegery does not involve certain death. What strateegery is there to the 17th at Sawgrass? IMHO, the Scots got it right. A burn provides for strateegery. You can choose to hit near it or to hit away from it. However, accidentally hitting towards it often misses, whereas a pond most often swallows the shot.

The aesthetics of most ponds are highly questionable. Often times they look like scars on the landscape rather than aesthetic pleasures. But I guess if people spend all their time in man made cities, they have lower standards on man made ponds.

[Greg Chambers]

Anthony:

Pete Dye avoids forced carries over water more than most architects.  He has plenty of water in play to the sides of his holes, and off the back and sometimes the middle tee, but he rarely ever puts a stream or a pond right across the line of play, because he knows exactly what that does to a woman who can only carry the ball 65-70 yards.

  Tom,

 At his most highly ranked courses there are many forced carries over water. The Honors...7 8 9 15 16   Sawgrass... 1 2 4 8 11 15 16 17 18  Teeth of the Dog 5 7 15 16 18  even Whistling Straits has a double carry on one hole. And it is a "links course".

  Anthony

There's a difference between being forced to carry water and forced to play along water.  At what point on 18 @ Sawgrass is one "forced" to carry the water?

[Garland Bayley]

I would agree that crappy use of forced carries is a problem, as is crappy use of any hazard, but . . .

12, 13, 15 and 16 at Augusta?

AM had it right. RTJ screwed it up, especially at 16.

[Anthony Gray]

  What is this worlg coming to? Garland does not like holes on cliffs and now Bogey doesn't want to hit a ball over water. What is next?............Tom Doaks new Salt Flats Course.

  Anthony

[Anthony Gray]

Anthony:

Pete Dye avoids forced carries over water more than most architects.  He has plenty of water in play to the sides of his holes, and off the back and sometimes the middle tee, but he rarely ever puts a stream or a pond right across the line of play, because he knows exactly what that does to a woman who can only carry the ball 65-70 yards.

  Tom,

 At his most highly ranked courses there are many forced carries over water. The Honors...7 8 9 15 16   Sawgrass... 1 2 4 8 11 15 16 17 18  Teeth of the Dog 5 7 15 16 18  even Whistling Straits has a double carry on one hole. And it is a "links course".

  Anthony

There's a difference between being forced to carry water and forced to play along water.  At what point on 18 @ Sawgrass is one "forced" to carry the water?

  Greg,

  It is a cape hole. The teebox is in the water.

  Anthony

[Charlie Goerges]

Anthony, I looked at a map and on Sawgrass 1,2,11,15, and 18 the water looks to be to the side rather than a direct carry. I may not be looking at the most current map, but from that perspective it looks like it's to the sides.

[Steve Salmen]

The point about Shoreacres is that the forced carries over water do not make it less of a course or less enjoyable.  

Pat,

I was thinking 2,8,11,12,13.  Obviously 12 and 13 are not hard to clear, but I believe there is a creek.  Isn't there water on 11?

[Greg Chambers]

Anthony:

Pete Dye avoids forced carries over water more than most architects.  He has plenty of water in play to the sides of his holes, and off the back and sometimes the middle tee, but he rarely ever puts a stream or a pond right across the line of play, because he knows exactly what that does to a woman who can only carry the ball 65-70 yards.

  Tom,

 At his most highly ranked courses there are many forced carries over water. The Honors...7 8 9 15 16   Sawgrass... 1 2 4 8 11 15 16 17 18  Teeth of the Dog 5 7 15 16 18  even Whistling Straits has a double carry on one hole. And it is a "links course".

  Anthony

There's a difference between being forced to carry water and forced to play along water.  At what point on 18 @ Sawgrass is one "forced" to carry the water?

  Greg,

  It is a cape hole. The teebox is in the water.

  Anthony

You're high if you think the tee is in the water.  Google Earth it, man, you can damn near walk a straight line from the tee to the fairway.

[Anthony Gray]

Anthony, I looked at a map and on Sawgrass 1,2,11,15, and 18 the water looks to be to the side rather than a direct carry. I may not be looking at the most current map, but from that perspective it looks like it's to the sides.

  I'm not sure what the map shows, but when you are there your ball crosses the water on those holes and if you are short you're agua.

  Anthony

[PCCraig]

The point about Shoreacres is that the forced carries over water do not make it less of a course or less enjoyable.  

Pat,

I was thinking 2,8,11,12,13.  Obviously 12 and 13 are not hard to clear, but I believe there is a creek.  Isn't there water on 11?

I understand your point. I was just trying to think of which holes you were noting.

As far as I can remember there isn't an actual creek off the tee, but there is one at the base of the ravine you carry on the way to the green.

[Anthony Gray]

  Greg,

  It is a cape hole. The teebox is in the water.

  Anthony


[/quote]


You're high if you think the tee is in the water.  Google Earth it, man, you can damn near walk a straight line from the tee to the fairway.
[/quote]

  Damn near.

  Anthony

[Garland Bayley]

The forced carry over a significantly sized body of water is best avoided on approaches to greens. If the landscape is such that there simply must be ponds in play, and some of them lie in the area golf holes are to be routed, then any forced carries should be mimized and placed only in locations where golfers have perfect lies from which to hit their shots.

A small stream can be located almost anywhere, provided there is room to manuveur beyond its borders. E.g., if it guards a green, then there should be room to lay up, followed by a short pitch over it.

[Anthony Gray]

  Greg,

  It is a cape hole. The teebox is in the water.

  Anthony

You're high if you think the tee is in the water.  Google Earth it, man, you can damn near walk a straight line from the tee to the fairway.
[/quote]

  Damn near.

  Anthony


[/quote]

  If you can walk on water you can hit a driver then walk a straight line to your ball in the fairway.

  Anthony

[Greg Chambers]

  Greg,

  It is a cape hole. The teebox is in the water.

  Anthony

You're high if you think the tee is in the water.  Google Earth it, man, you can damn near walk a straight line from the tee to the fairway.
[/quote]

  Damn near.

  Anthony


[/quote]


If a player were to hit the ball out to the right to avoid the water, it could be done without the ball ever having carried the water.  Therefore, if the shot can be executed without being forced to carry the water, then it is not a forced carry.

[Carl Johnson]

Any thoughts on the following water carries from the tee, with no other practical option, and from only slightly elevated tee pads?  The first number is the carry to right side of the fairway, with the better approach to par 4's green, while the second number is to the left side of the fairway, leaving a more difficult approach.  Back black tees: 244 - 234.  Next tees, blue: 224 - 214; next tees, white: 150 - 140; forward tees, green: 129 - 119.  There are six tee pads, so shorter set-ups are possible.  Here's how the course plays from each set of tees: black, 7011; blue, 6453; white, 5891; and green: 5253.

[Tom_Doak]

Anthony:

I am just telling you what Pete Dye told me in the 1980's ... he does not like to have forced carries over water, and especially not forced carries from the fairways.  95% of the time his water hazards are to the side, and don't require a carry from the forward tees.

You're right there are a couple of exceptions to that at The Honors Course ... which surprised me because he built it right at the same time he told me his philosophy on the subject.

[Andy Troeger]

Anthony,
In no way would I call half of those holes you mentioned at Sawgrass "forced carry holes." Especially #18, you could carry water off the tee if you want to play a fade, but there are numerous other options. I would also never call it a cape hole. The obvious forced carries at Sawgrass are #4, 9, 11, and 17. The first three should be pretty do-able for most people. Ironically I really like that set of holes even though I wouldn't consider myself a fan of forced carries in general.

[Anthony Gray]

Anthony,
In no way would I call half of those holes you mentioned at Sawgrass "forced carry holes." Especially #18, you could carry water off the tee if you want to play a fade, but there are numerous other options. I would also never call it a cape hole. The obvious forced carries at Sawgrass are #4, 9, 11, and 17. The first three should be pretty do-able for most people. Ironically I really like that set of holes even though I wouldn't consider myself a fan of forced carries in general.

 Andy,

  Respectfully...I can't see getting to the green in two without crossing the water with your tee ball on 18. On 1 you are going to cross the water unless you are laying up or planning a long secound. To me you may not be "forced" to cross the water, but if you are playing for par it is necessary to cross the water to put your ball in the position to score on the holes I mentioned.

  Anthony

[Andy Troeger]

Anthony,
I see what you're saying, but getting to the green in two has nothing to do with whether its a forced carry or not. The people who would have any concern about carrying some of those hazards aren't going to be making many pars at Sawgrass. They can be carry shots, but the point of forced carries is that one absolutely can't go around (short of putting the ball up the bridge on #17 obviously). One can easily go around on #1 and 18--it may make a par more difficult but its still not a forced carry.

[Anthony Gray]

Anthony,
I see what you're saying, but getting to the green in two has nothing to do with whether its a forced carry or not. The people who would have any concern about carrying some of those hazards aren't going to be making many pars at Sawgrass. They can be carry shots, but the point of forced carries is that one absolutely can't go around (short of putting the ball up the bridge on #17 obviously). One can easily go around on #1 and 18--it may make a par more difficult but its still not a forced carry.

  Andy,

  Agreed......Not mandatory to cross the water on the holes I mentioned, but prefered. I think Pete Dye is the best at the use of water in design.

  Anthony

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