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Bryan Izatt

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Hallelujah - A Course Design That Works For Short Hitters
« on: February 18, 2009, 12:42:08 PM »
The Golf Club at Del Webb in Ave Maria, FL designed by Gordon G. Lewis.

My wife is the archetypal short hitter - a monster drive is 150 yards, fairway woods around 100 yards, elevation on shots maybe 10 yards - so most courses we go to are a slog for her.  On 5,200 yard courses she rarely reaches a green in regulation, almost never is putting for par, and is always using a fairway wood for her second and third shots on any non-par 3 holes.  So, we went to Ave Maria, at least partly based on the fact that the most forward tees were at 4,664 yards and that the pace of play standard of 4 hours was supposedly achieved by most players.

Well, my wife had her career round on the course, shooting 45 on the back nine for a total of 97 and including a birdie and two pars and putts for par on three or four other holes.  There were even some par 4's where the second shot was with an iron and a par 5 that was reachable in three shots.  She didn't stop smiling all day long - and, we finished in three hours and 50 minutes.

So, what design features made the course so accommodating for her?  Well, it started with tees that presented the holes in the same fashion as tees further  back and weren't an afterthought pimple in the side rough.  The tees were sometimes RTJ-like strips, and sometimes were separate square pedestals that were properly oriented to the hole.





The course presented very wide fairway corridors (up to 70 yards wide).  The width wasn't all that significant for her because she doesn't hit it that far, but it helped because the fairways were maintained very firm and fast.  Even missed shots ran a long way, aided by the fact that they were running on fairway unless she really misdirected a shot.  Many of the greens were open in front allowing for run up shots, which is good when you don't get a lot of elevation or carry on your shots.  And, finally, the greens were relatively subtle in their contouring which helped minimize the three and four putts.

Now, for the purists who will say this is a dumbed down course for the geriatric Florida golf population, the tees stretch back to 7,532 yards, many of the landing areas for long hitters are pinched down to require some accuracy and the fast and firm fairways can get you off into trouble in a hurry despite their width.  Although it will never be a top 100 course, it does deliver something that is all too rare, a course that can accommodate the short player while providing some challenge and interest for the longer, better player.  Good on Gordon Lewis.

And, he designed in a decent biarritz green to boot.




TEPaul

Re: Hallelujah - A Course Design That Works For Short Hitters
« Reply #1 on: February 18, 2009, 01:38:05 PM »
Frank Thomas called that kind of course a "Bunny Course" or a "Bunny Slope Course" and he feels they are definitely necessary to get people into and interested in the game. Is your wife a "Bunny," Bryan?

I can't see her that well but from afar she certainly looks like a little slip of a thing. Is she? Do you think you've been feeding her properly? The alternative is for you to get a bit more generous and put her on a new and better diet and fatten her up some and then she may be able to step to the back tees and pound it out there with Tiger and the rest of the Big Dogs!
« Last Edit: February 18, 2009, 01:40:47 PM by TEPaul »

Tom_Doak

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Re: Hallelujah - A Course Design That Works For Short Hitters
« Reply #2 on: February 18, 2009, 01:47:13 PM »
Bryan:

Not many women go out to Bandon, but all the courses there are pretty friendly for women golfers because the fairways are so firm and fast.

Pacific Dunes has several forward tees at the start of the fairways ... I don't even know how short it is from there, because we didn't want to put the number on the card.  But I'm sure it's under 5000 yards, and the fairways run a lot more than in Chicago.  The result is ... happy golfers!  I've heard from women who beat their personal best score by ten shots.  And none of them give a darn how short the course is.

Carl Johnson

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Re: Hallelujah - A Course Design That Works For Short Hitters
« Reply #3 on: February 18, 2009, 01:47:28 PM »
Thanks for the post.  We could use more of these.  For short hitters, another obvious positive feature is the absence of forced carries, including carries over an excessive amount of rough grass before reaching the fairway.  A small stream directly in front of an elevated forward tee should not be a problem, but even a small stream fronting a green would hurt.  I don't see any reason why such characteristics could not be included in a good course for long hitters, too.

Jed Peters

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Re: Hallelujah - A Course Design That Works For Short Hitters
« Reply #4 on: February 18, 2009, 01:50:15 PM »
Bryan:

Not many women go out to Bandon, but all the courses there are pretty friendly for women golfers because the fairways are so firm and fast.

Pacific Dunes has several forward tees at the start of the fairways ... I don't even know how short it is from there, because we didn't want to put the number on the card.  But I'm sure it's under 5000 yards, and the fairways run a lot more than in Chicago.  The result is ... happy golfers!  I've heard from women who beat their personal best score by ten shots.  And none of them give a darn how short the course is.

Tom:

I've commented on this before--Pac Dunes does a PHENOMENAL job of taking care of the short hitter. Sometimes the forward tee boxes on many holes are BETTER than those of the further back holes.

Jed


John Moore II

Re: Hallelujah - A Course Design That Works For Short Hitters
« Reply #5 on: February 18, 2009, 01:54:11 PM »
I see these type places being great places for people to just go out and have fun. Perhaps the reason a course like Pinehurst #3 is one of the most popular at the resort among the members. And there is no reason on a course like this that the back tees can't be backed up into the range that most men will enjoy playing it (and not get bored). Certainly these courses won't ever host a tour event, but then, thats not their purpose is it?

Art_Schaupeter

Re: Hallelujah - A Course Design That Works For Short Hitters
« Reply #6 on: February 18, 2009, 01:54:53 PM »
That is a great set up and yardage for the forward tee players.  Much like the mindset of many who believe a course needs to be 7000 yards long to be considered "legit", I have found many  who believe that the forward tees need to be at least 5000 yards long.  If you use 130-135 yards as the typical drive of the players on the forward tees, you will find that the holes are too long in most instances for those players if the course measures 5000 yards or more.  I think 4500-4800 yards is a great range for the forward tees.  5000-5200 yards is too long for the typical forward tee player.  The golf course looks like a nice, fun golfing experience.

Paul Stephenson

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Re: Hallelujah - A Course Design That Works For Short Hitters
« Reply #7 on: February 18, 2009, 02:49:36 PM »
My mother plays her best golf of the year in February/March when she is in Florida for the very reason(s) you described Brian.  And she doesn't play nearly as often down there compared to the summer months here.

My father plays his worst golf of the year in Feb./Mar. and seems to lose more balls in two months than a whole summer up here.

Isn't it ironic that the "bland" Florida courses can do this.

Bryan Izatt

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Re: Hallelujah - A Course Design That Works For Short Hitters
« Reply #8 on: February 18, 2009, 08:10:28 PM »
TEP,

Yup, she's still my "bunny",  ;D  and a slip of a thing at 98 lbs and 5'1", but she ain't ever going to be fattened up.  She controls her own diet and is into low fat, low calorie stuff.  Don't get my description of the course wrong, it's not like a bunny ski slope if played from the back.  It is conducive to accommodating the short hitter from the front.

Tom D.,

A few years back we did go to Bandon in the summer.  My recollection is that she was defeated by Pac Dunes largely because of the winds and the green complexes (hard to get on and hard to putt).  She is prone to three putting a lot.  Pretty good out of the green-side bunkers though.

Carl,

Thanks for mentioning forced carries.  I meant to mention that.  There weren't any from the forward tees and it makes a difference when even a foozled drive can run out 100 yards.

Art,

I'd like to see forward tees around 4,500 yards.  I think that's a more optimal distance for short hitters.  Of course, it depends on the way the length is distributed amongst the holes.

Steve_ Shaffer

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"Some of us worship in churches, some in synagogues, some on golf courses ... "  Adlai Stevenson
Hyman Roth to Michael Corleone: "We're bigger than US Steel."
Ben Hogan “The most important shot in golf is the next one”

JNC Lyon

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Re: Hallelujah - A Course Design That Works For Short Hitters
« Reply #10 on: February 18, 2009, 09:52:44 PM »
Our club put in a new set of tees a few years back that moved the forward-most tees from 5,700 yards to 5,100 yards.  However, the ladies who hit the ball 130 yards off the tee think it is too short at 5, 100 and opt instead to play the 5,600 yard tees.  I hit the ball 240 off the tee and 5,600 is barely short enough for me!  The par fours max out at 380, meaning it will take many players who play the 5,600 tees three fine shots to reach in two (to quote a Prestwick caddy).

Nevertheless, the short tees are great for junior players who are learning the game, and they allowed me to get my first and only hole in one!  Thus, short tees are a great idea, but the people who should play them might not always play them.
"That's why Oscar can't see that!" - Philip E. "Timmy" Thomas

Mike Bowline

Re: Hallelujah - A Course Design That Works For Short Hitters
« Reply #11 on: February 18, 2009, 10:19:56 PM »
Quote

course flyover:

http://www.golfclubatdelwebb.com/Animated-Course-Flyover_568d5377.html

Too bad their striving for pictorial realism led to including the stark-white cart paths in the flyover.

Bryan Izatt

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Re: Hallelujah - A Course Design That Works For Short Hitters
« Reply #12 on: February 19, 2009, 02:35:31 AM »
JNC,

Perhaps the women have as much ego and competitiveness as men do.  How many men, who are not capable of it, play the tips anyway.

Mike,

The cart paths in reality are crushed shells, and are bright white, and could be played as waste areas, although the starter says you get a free lift from them, so you won't scratch your clubs.   ::)  In practice they are not all that obvious.  The flyovers make the water look more in play than it is and make the fairways and greens appear more undulating than they really are.

Ken Moum

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Re: Hallelujah - A Course Design That Works For Short Hitters
« Reply #13 on: February 19, 2009, 09:02:58 AM »
My favorite aunt wised me up to total yardage of golf courses almost 20 years ago. She os currently 80 years old, but back then she was about a 10 handicap who had figured out that anything over about 4,900 yards wasn't much fun to play.

To this day, when you suggest playing somewhere teh first thing she asks is how long it is from the forward tees.

My wife, also a 10-12 handicap quickly realized the same thing.

There are lots of other factors that can come into play, but if the total yardage is starts with a 5, there are going to be too many holes that are unreachable in regulation, and wasaaay too many wood shots.

Ken
Over time, the guy in the ideal position derives an advantage, and delivering him further  advantage is not worth making the rest of the players suffer at the expense of fun, variety, and ultimately cost -- Jeff Warne, 12-08-2010

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