[Matthew Rose]

An old World Atlas of Golf I have reveals a course in Germany called Club Zuhr Vahr, which plays to a par of 74 and features six par-fives, three on each side, or at least it did in 1975 when this edition was published... is that still the case?

Obviously this isn't common.... anyone know of other examples of a par-74, or even higher? I've never seen it, apart from the inflated pars of ladies' tees you often see at country clubs.

I won't count par-73 because, even though it is atypical, it is at least notable at places like Kapalua.

[astavrides]

los serranos south.  chino hills, ca.  par 74

[Tom_Doak]

I believe Wentworth (West) was par-74 at one time, also ... though they reduced it for tournaments.

A par 74 course is extremely unusual today.  However, back before 1920, a lot of famous courses were par 74 or 75 ... Oakmont was 75 I believe.

[John Moore II]

I had not really heard of modern courses being above par 73, and I don't think I've ever played a course with over par 72. I would say that they are very odd, and were one built today, I think it would be kind of like the par 6 hole that is being talked about now. Just a big marketing gimmick to put down on paper, kind of like a circus act promoting a bearded lady or a two-headed heifer.

[Adrian_Stiff]

Only one 74 in the UK currently 'The Vale' TD is right about Wentworht, I think Wentworth was 74 up to about 1976. The 1st and 15th were fives, The first lost 5 yards when courses got remeasured by laser and the back tee at 15 got abandoned, although it is now used and is 480 ish and a 4. Birkdale used to have the 1st, 6th, 13th, 15th, 17th and 18th as fives, the tees have not changed but 4 of them are now 4's. If you take the old measures of up to 475 yards as the limit for par fours a lot of new courses would be 75. Most older UK courses count holes over 476 as fives and many that are par 70, even 71 might be kinda 68. Still a few par 73s about.

[Ian_L]

A Google search gives a destination in UAE: http://www.emirateshotelsresorts.com/green-lakes/en/the-experience/exploring-the-locale/golf-courses/

"The Montgomerie is an 18-hole, 7,308-yard, par 75 course that is becoming increasingly popular with visitors. The traditions of a Scottish links course make it a unique golfing experience in this part of the world. One hole which always provokes comment is the par 3 thirteenth which is not only designed in the shape of the UAE but also lays claim to being the largest single golfing green in the world. At 58,000 square feet, it is the size of nine greens combined."

[Kirk Gill]

I had not really heard of modern courses being above par 73, and I don't think I've ever played a course with over par 72. I would say that they are very odd, and were one built today, I think it would be kind of like the par 6 hole that is being talked about now. Just a big marketing gimmick to put down on paper, kind of like a circus act promoting a bearded lady or a two-headed heifer.

Wow. So the par designation is pretty rigid, then? Interesting what Adrian says about how long par 4's on some courses have slipped back and forth between being designated a 4 or a 5. Thus, if a course decides to label a couple of holes as par 5's they are a circus act, but if they go back and decide that they're par 4's, then they're within the traditional boundaries and thus ok? Or is this rule only in effect for newly constructed courses?

[Adrian_Stiff]

Kirk- The rules governing lengths of par 4s and 5s have simply gone. Some 4s on the US open have been 520 yards. Now how many golf courses are Par 72 with 4 par 5s but all under 520? If you apply the 'rule' its a par 68. Equally, some modern courses have 4 par 4's over 475 yards so if you apply 'the old rule' its a par 76. Does not really matter really.

[Tom_Doak]

Adrian:

The suggested yardage limit for par-4 holes back in the Golden Age was 445 yards, so many of those courses had four par-5's, three of which were under 500 yards.  You normally find today that one of them had room to be lengthened to 500+, and one or two have been switched to par-4's.

Even The Old Course at St. Andrews is an example ... in the old days the Road Hole was a par 5. 

[Kirk Gill]

Does not really matter really.

Thanks, Adrian. That's kinda what I was getting at.........

[John Moore II]

I had not really heard of modern courses being above par 73, and I don't think I've ever played a course with over par 72. I would say that they are very odd, and were one built today, I think it would be kind of like the par 6 hole that is being talked about now. Just a big marketing gimmick to put down on paper, kind of like a circus act promoting a bearded lady or a two-headed heifer.

Wow. So the par designation is pretty rigid, then? Interesting what Adrian says about how long par 4's on some courses have slipped back and forth between being designated a 4 or a 5. Thus, if a course decides to label a couple of holes as par 5's they are a circus act, but if they go back and decide that they're par 4's, then they're within the traditional boundaries and thus ok? Or is this rule only in effect for newly constructed courses?

Its not a rule or a rigid designation. I mean, if a course could be designed with 12 excellent par 4's, 4 excellent par 5's but only 2 excellent par 3's, and the routing made sense and it really seemed like the holes were the best possible, then it could work. I just think that in general if a course were to be built today, the 'par 74' designation would be used as a dopey marketing gimmick. But as I say, if par 74 resulted in the best routing possible for an above average course, then that would be fine. Just like with Kapalua being par 73, its a very good routing, so its not that much of a gimmick. As long as that is the case, it would be fine. But if you make a par 74 just to be different, then its stupid.

[Jim Nugent]

Par 74 means two more par 5's than par 3's.  So long as there are no par 6's.  I suspect one reason there are so few par 75 courses, is that longer holes are tougher on average golfers.  Short holes are easier. 

[Tom_Doak]

Jim:

I suspect it's more about the totals.

I've built one par-73 ... Black Forest in Michigan.  (Five par fives, four par threes.)  It was built to be a tough course, but even though the par fives are all potential birdie holes, it still seems to break most people's backs.  I think a lot of it is just that with a par 73 it's that much harder for people to break 80 or 90 or whatever their goal is.

[Matt_Ward]

Gents:

My view is a simple one -- getting a par beyond 72 won't likely fly for many people given the "standard" nature that many people see as appropriate.

Personally, for me, I think getting a consistency on having more par-5's is the more difficult dimension. Par-5 holes of note are hard to desgn because you need to factor in the highly skilled player and those of lesser ability levels. Getting one or two first rate ones may not be too difficult but from the courses I have played getting four, five or six of them to really succeed can be quite overwhelming for many designers.

If anything -- having a course with few par-5's seems to be a more easier proposition but again getting people here in the States to accept "par" for courses with a 68 or 69 total can be just as difficult as the flipside with a 74 or more.

[Christoph Meister]

An old World Atlas of Golf I have reveals a course in Germany called Club Zuhr Vahr, which plays to a par of 74 and features six par-fives, three on each side, or at least it did in 1975 when this edition was published... is that still the case?

Obviously this isn't common.... anyone know of other examples of a par-74, or even higher? I've never seen it, apart from the inflated pars of ladies' tees you often see at country clubs.

I won't count par-73 because, even though it is atypical, it is at least notable at places like Kapalua.

Mark Rowlinson appearantly had reasons to omit the Garlstedter Heide Course of Club zur Vahr from the World Atlas of Golf. Nevertheless this course is considered German architects Bernhard von Limburger's masterpiece. When it opened in 1965 it even played as a Par 75 with four Par-five holes on the back nine. Today it still plays as a Par 74 with a USGA CR of 73,7 and a Slope Index of 136 off the yellow men's tees playing over 6.283m - for a detailed current scorecard pls. have a look on http://club-zur-vahr.de/cms/index.php?id=420

Regards,

Christoph

[Richard Hetzel]

I have never seen a par 74 course. I have played Linrick Gc just North of Columbia, SC, it is a par 73 and tough as nails.

[Christoph Meister]

The Garlstedter Heide Course of Club zur Vahr used to be Germany's only entry to "The world atlas of Golf" in the first 1976 edition.

Several tour players of that time, such as Neil Coles and Brian Huggett claimed in this book claimed that the course was a very tough challenge comparable to Augusta......it certainly is the toughest thing Bernhard von Limburger, the best-known German Golf Course architect of that time, ever designed. Personally I feel it is his masterpiece!

You might get a slight idea of this looking at the original 1965 layout and scorecard. Also I have enclosed a scan of a 1999 scoreccards showing that No 16 was reduced from a 415m Par five to a 407m Par Four - this reduced the par from 75 to 74 but this certainly did not make life easier for the professional golfer... 

[Tony Ristola]

I think Falkenstein and Frankfurter would have been better choices.

My guess is they had enough Colt courses when the original was published.
Today golf aficionados should be pointed to the best courses in the land regardless of politics.

Now that Frankfurt has lost its Colt, I wonder if it is in The Gazetteer section, or if it was scrubbed too. The course and or the section.

It would represent quite the architectural 2-fer.

.

[Christoph Meister]

I think Falkenstein and Frankfurter would have been better choices.

My guess is they had enough Colt courses when the original was published.
Today golf aficionados should be pointed to the best courses in the land regardless of politics.

Now that Frankfurt has lost its Colt, I wonder if it is in The Gazetteer section, or if it was scrubbed too. The course and or the section.

It would represent quite the architectural 2-fer.

.

Falkenstein is now in the main section of the "World Atlas of Golf" being the only course in what they call "Central Europe" (=Germany, Switzerland, Austria) mentionned, the Gazetteer section was dropped and so was Frankfurt....

[Tony Ristola]

I think Falkenstein and Frankfurter would have been better choices.

My guess is they had enough Colt courses when the original was published.
Today golf aficionados should be pointed to the best courses in the land regardless of politics.

Now that Frankfurt has lost its Colt, I wonder if it is in The Gazetteer section, or if it was scrubbed too. The course and or the section.

It would represent quite the architectural 2-fer.

.

Falkenstein is now in the main section of the "World Atlas of Golf" being the only course in what they call "Central Europe" (=Germany, Switzerland, Austria) mentionned, the Gazetteer section was dropped and so was Frankfurt....

Frankfurt isn't the same course after they redid the greens and bunkers, and zur Vahr looks a bit like Frankfurt now. Why have courses that look like 10,000 other modern courses and why have clones representing Germany? Frankfurt and CzV look similar. My guess is the same company did the  new construction.

I think WAOG folks they made the right choices.

Austria really has little of exception; Seefeld was another sympathy vote in the original edition. Switzerland? Jon Wigget could drop a line on what's decent there.

Germany could have been a gold mine... the opportunity to build courses on par with the English heathland courses abound; too bad.

.

[Christoph Meister]

Frankfurt isn't the same course after they redid the greens and bunkers, and zur Vahr looks a bit like Frankfurt now. Why have courses that look like 10,000 other modern courses and why have clones representing Germany? Frankfurt and CzV look similar. My guess is the same company did the  new construction.

I think WAOG folks they made the right choices.

Austria really has little of exception; Seefeld was another sympathy vote in the original edition. Switzerland? Jon Wigget could drop a line on what's decent there.

Germany could have been a gold mine... the opportunity to build courses on par with the English heathland courses abound; too bad.

[/quote]

Still Frankfurt and Garlstedter Heide (Club zur Vahr) remain different, Frankfurt was origanally designed during the late 1920's by Colt & Morrison whereas Garlstedter Heide was designed by Germany's Bernhard von Limburger and opened 1965, but you probably know that....

Given their limited space the WAOG people have probably done the right choice choosing Hamburg-Falkenstein as the sole entry for Central Europe.

In Austria the game took a good development since the 199's0 and very good courses like Adamstal, Fontana and Schloss Schönborn have been opened during the last twenty years. I would personally rate these courses even better than Seefeld, so does the Austrian Golf magazine "Golf Revue". Also the Perry Dye designed Klagenfurt-Seltenheim receives good feedback, but I haven't played that one...

Switzerland was one of the first countries where golf had arrived together with British tourists and during the 1930's Switzerland had probably the highest amount of golf courses per inhabitants in continental Europe.. but then not much happened, there was a period from the late 1960's to the late 1980's, I think 17 years, when not a single new golf course opened in Switzerland.

But even during the 1990's there was not the same increase in the number of golf course such as in Germany and Austria, also because golf developpers in Switzerland allways have to fight with a strong number of opponents.....but then quantity doesn't necessarily mean quality....

They do have quite a few nice courses in Switzerland also because of the atractive Alpine panorama you find on most courses - Ascona, Crans-Montana and Zurich-Zumikon, Lenzerheide (this certainly is not a complete list) are only a few to name of some quite attractive Swiss courses...
...

I am not sure about any PAR 74's in Switzerland or Austria - if I am correct that's the topic here :-)

[Ulrich Mayring]

Frankfurt isn't the same course after they redid the greens and bunkers, and zur Vahr looks a bit like Frankfurt now. Why have courses that look like 10,000 other modern courses and why have clones representing Germany? Frankfurt and CzV look similar. My guess is the same company did the  new construction.

You would be right on that account, both renovations were done by Christoph Städler.

Ulrich

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