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Michael Dugger

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Bethpage Black Final Round Set Up
« on: June 21, 2009, 07:04:02 PM »
I am loving this, perhaps the USGA bashing needs to cease.

Anyone see the pin on #8?  The hole is playing 127 yds!!!

#6 and #18 are almost drivable

This is no long hard slog....
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What does it matter if the poor player can putt all the way from tee to green, provided that he has to zigzag so frequently that he takes six or seven putts to reach it?     --Alistair Mackenzie--

Mike Sweeney

Re: Bethpage Black Final Round Set Up
« Reply #1 on: June 21, 2009, 07:10:54 PM »
Quote from: Michael Dugger on June 21, 2009, 07:04:02 PM

Anyone see the pin on #8?  The hole is playing 127 yds!!!


You actually mean #14. By the way you and my friend Mike Cirba have to stop your Rees bashing for 1 round because that is 100% a Rees pin!
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Michael Dugger

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Re: Bethpage Black Final Round Set Up
« Reply #2 on: June 21, 2009, 07:15:22 PM »
Indeed you are correct, Mike, I wasn't listening very closely and had planned to come back and mention the correct hole.

Some dude just about aced it a second ago....
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What does it matter if the poor player can putt all the way from tee to green, provided that he has to zigzag so frequently that he takes six or seven putts to reach it?     --Alistair Mackenzie--

Jim_Kennedy

  • Karma: +0/-0
Re: Bethpage Black Final Round Set Up
« Reply #3 on: June 21, 2009, 07:17:46 PM »
...and what a good pin it is. Definitely fits the green-within-a-green idea and really stands out on such an otherwise huge surface. I wonder how many guys will try to get it close and not be happy with going long and safe?
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"I never beat a well man in my life" - Harry Vardon

Phil McDade

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Re: Bethpage Black Final Round Set Up
« Reply #4 on: June 21, 2009, 07:25:32 PM »
Honestly, my first reaction was -- clown's mouth?

Really -- a 127-yd par 3 in the final round of the US Open, to a portion of the green the size of a closet? Is that what the Open has come down to under Davis' leadership?

I await the action on the 18th -- I like drivable par 4s.
« Last Edit: June 21, 2009, 07:27:47 PM by Phil McDade »
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Jim_Kennedy

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Re: Bethpage Black Final Round Set Up
« Reply #5 on: June 21, 2009, 07:38:10 PM »
Pebble at 107 and Torrey Pines at 142 were a couple of other short ones.

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"I never beat a well man in my life" - Harry Vardon

Phil McDade

  • Karma: +0/-0
Re: Bethpage Black Final Round Set Up
« Reply #6 on: June 21, 2009, 08:10:25 PM »
Jim:

Pebble's 7th is in a setting perhaps incomparable in major championship golf, on a spit of land totally exposed to winds, surrounded nearly entirely by bunkers, and a tiny green with hardly any room to bail. Hardly comparable.
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PThomas

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Re: Bethpage Black Final Round Set Up
« Reply #7 on: June 21, 2009, 08:20:45 PM »
they didnt set it up that easy to give Tiger a better chance, did they??
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199 played, only Augusta National left to play!

Michael Dugger

  • Karma: +0/-0
Re: Bethpage Black Final Round Set Up
« Reply #8 on: June 21, 2009, 08:26:58 PM »
I like the following table taken from Robert Hunter's The Links.

When they talk about a "complete test," I take that to mean an examination of all the golf shots. 

And I count 127 yd flip wedges as a part of that....

Why the obsession with a huge course?  It's one dimensional
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What does it matter if the poor player can putt all the way from tee to green, provided that he has to zigzag so frequently that he takes six or seven putts to reach it?     --Alistair Mackenzie--

Michael Dugger

  • Karma: +0/-0
Re: Bethpage Black Final Round Set Up
« Reply #9 on: June 21, 2009, 08:28:16 PM »
Quote from: Mike Sweeney on June 21, 2009, 07:10:54 PM
Quote from: Michael Dugger on June 21, 2009, 07:04:02 PM

Anyone see the pin on #8?  The hole is playing 127 yds!!!


You actually mean #14. By the way you and my friend Mike Cirba have to stop your Rees bashing for 1 round because that is 100% a Rees pin!

If that's the best he's done I still stand my ground!!!!
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What does it matter if the poor player can putt all the way from tee to green, provided that he has to zigzag so frequently that he takes six or seven putts to reach it?     --Alistair Mackenzie--

Matt_Ward

Re: Bethpage Black Final Round Set Up
« Reply #10 on: June 21, 2009, 08:55:54 PM »
Phil:

You are so right -- nothing like a short par-3 -- I'd much rather have a 300-yard par-3 hole !

One other thing -- you commend Mike Davis for the '06 and '07 event set-ups -- he's done as well, if not better, inspite of the massive elements to overcome, with this week. If you can embrace WF/W and Oakmont for what they produced under his handiwork -- then BB deserves no less given all that it has had to overcome.
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Jim_Kennedy

  • Karma: +0/-0
Re: Bethpage Black Final Round Set Up
« Reply #11 on: June 21, 2009, 09:09:12 PM »
Phil,
On Sunday at the 2002 Open the 7th ranked 13th hardest out of the 18 holes, with an average score of 3.00 for the field. There were 8 birdies, 48 pars, 6 bogies and 1 double.  

It's 'hardly comparable ' because it doesn't fit your premise, which seems to be more about bashing Mike Davis. I guess you forget how successful his set-ups were at Winged Foot, Oakmont, Torrey Pines and, I think, this year at BPB.
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"I never beat a well man in my life" - Harry Vardon

cary lichtenstein

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Re: Bethpage Black Final Round Set Up
« Reply #12 on: June 21, 2009, 09:15:59 PM »
I'm hoping we have an exciting end to this marathon
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Live Jupiter, Fl, was  4 handicap, played top 100 US, top 75 World. Great memories, no longer play, 4 back surgeries. I don't miss a lot of things about golf, life is simpler with out it. I miss my 60 degree wedge shots, don't miss nasty weather, icing, back spasms. Last course I played was Augusta

Phil McDade

  • Karma: +0/-0
Re: Bethpage Black Final Round Set Up
« Reply #13 on: June 21, 2009, 11:44:29 PM »
Matt:

I think a 300-yard par 3 -- played downhill, with an open green allowing a run-up shot (see: http://golfclubatlas.com/courses-by-country/usa/oakmont/oakmont-country-club-pg-ii) -- is a better challenge than a 126-yard (downhill) par 3 in the final round of the US Open.

Jim:

I'm not interested in "bashing" Mike Davis, and I don't think I've done so. I am interested in discussing his set-up for this year's Open, at this course, and: a) how it's not as difficult as it was in '02 (a point largely conceded by most everyone); b) whether Davis' set-up approach/philosophy (wider fairways, graduated rough, more accesible pin positions, moved-up tees) is more vulnerable to low scores if certain weather conditions prevail (mainly rain); and c) whether a) and b) make for a better US Open test for these players.

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Phil_the_Author

Re: Bethpage Black Final Round Set Up
« Reply #14 on: June 22, 2009, 07:19:16 PM »
A few comments on the final round set-up.

The up tee locations on 6 & 18 were for different reasons. ^ to encourage some to try driving wond the hill (a foolish decision actually) and 18 because of the water problem still in the fairway area between the bunkers. In NEITHER case were either hole even remotely drivable. In fact, there is only a single recorded instance of the 18th green having been driven from the lower tee and that was actually ten yards BEHIND where the tee was today. I was actually there and witnessed it.

Jim, I think you have your holes mixed up. In 2002 or 2009 neither on Sunday or any other day did #7 average 3.00. The only hole that averaged under par in 2002 was the 14th.

Mike Sweeney, bothe Mike Cirba & Dugger SHOULD stop bashing Rees, but for other reasons than the front toungue and Sunday hole location on 14. The tongue was SOMEONE ELSE'S idea... I know because I was there when it was discussed and decided. The left bunker was Rees's.

Mike Davis did a FABULOUS job of listening to ideas from many corners as to hole set-ups and for which days and yet the final decisions were all his and he did a MARVELOUS job in balancing them out. For example, the front hole location on 8 was only used when a back hole location was used on 14. 
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