"a Monte Christo Golf Club"

[TEPaul]

This seems to be the name at least one newspaper and apparently some golfers used around 1905 to describe the developing concept and course that was to become NGLA.

I wonder if that name has something to do with Alexandre Dumas' "The Count of Monte Cristo" or something to do with its over-all theme?

It also seems that Macdonald and others that he had been soliciting about the idea early on may've been visualizing the idea of an NGLA (the site had not yet been specifically selected) as not just a golf club with a national membership but perhaps THE National golf club and course of America, perhaps even to be used for all or most USGA championships.

If one understands the extent of Macdonald's desire to transport golf, its spirit and organization to America EXACTLY as he knew it from his early days at St. Andrews as well as his fairly elitist philosophy about what should constitute the criteria for a course and its club to become an Regular "Associate" (voting) member of the USGA rather than an "Allied" (non-voting) member it may be that early on he was visualizing NGLA becoming sort of the St. Andrews/R&A (The golf club and golf's administrative association) of America where the National governing body (USGA) was essentially installed within a golf club!

[Jim_Kennedy]

Tom,
Maybe they were using it to describe the Great Man himself, as a Monte Cristo is also a cheesy ham sandwich, toasted(well, grilled, but that didn't work as good as toast).   

[Chris_Blakely]

Interesting description, Alexandre Dumas' character The Count of Monte Cristo or Edmund Dantes was one who had traveled throughout Europe and Asia, seen and studied many things and came across in the book almost as all knowing.  He thought of himself as a divine agent of Providence (at least in the revenge portion).  The Count of Monte Cristo had traveled throughout the world and studied the customs / peoples of the places he had been seems like it works as a metaphor to describe MacDonald's travels and studies of famous golf courses of the world.

Also I assume "Christo" in the your title should be 'Cristo?'

Chris

[Joe Bausch]

Here is the article that I think Tom is referring to, this from the September 5, 1905 issue of the Dallas Morning News (with the article originating from the New York Sun):

[TEPaul]

"...........seems like it works as a metaphor to describe MacDonald's travels and studies of famous golf courses of the world.

Also I assume "Christo" in the your title should be 'Cristo?'




ChrisB:

Precisely, it seems like it was used as a metaphor from the book for a course of what a poll of golf experts had determined to be the best holes from Great Britain.

I suppose it should be Cristo but in the article in the American Cricketer it was spelled Christo.



Thanks for posting that article, Joe. That is the one but it's mentioned more than once around that time. It's also interesting how Macdonald used Travis and GCGC as his ""American Address" in that circular he sent around leading up to the planning of NGLA. And judging from what American Cricketer said about him in a few articles it looks like it was Travis they considered to be the premier expert over here on all things golf and architecture before NGLA.

[Peter Pallotta]

Chris, TE - just for trivia's sake, did you know that Eugene O'Neill's father James (who was fictionalized as James Tyrone in "Long Day's Journey into Night") made an entire and very succesful career in the late 1800s and early 1900s staring in the theatrical production of "The Count of Monte Cristo"?  He played the lead role over 4,000 times!

TE - I've never read or thought about the idea you raise, but it makes perfect sense. I mean, perfect sense.  What a fascinating "what if" scenario, and equally fascinating "why didn't he manage to pull it off" discussion.

Peter 

[Steve_ Shaffer]

And I always thought that a "Monte Cristo club" was one that gave away those famous cigars in the men's locker room.




Live and learn.

[TEPaul]

Joe Bausch:

Actually the article I was looking at was from a September 1905 issue of The American Cricketer and not that article you posted from Texas (which is far more comprehensive). The American Cricketer article mentioned nothing about Dumas or the book "The Count of Monte Cristo." That was just my own thought.

[Joe Bausch]

Joe Bausch:

Actually the article I was looking at was from a September 1905 issue of The American Cricketer and not that article you posted from Texas (which is far more comprehensive). The American Cricketer article mentioned nothing about Dumas or the book "The Count of Monte Cristo." That was just my own thought.

Ah yes, I remember that day where the GCAer now known as Guest and you and me were at the Haverford library and ran into that article.

[TX Golf]

For those of you who haven't read the novel, you are missing out. The unabridged version is the best novel I have ever read!!!

Robert

[TEPaul]

Joe:

The thing that really interested me in one of those American Cricketer articles that mentioned "a Monte Cristo Golf Club" is how some seemed to assume early on that the idea of NGLA may've been an actual national golf course and club something like TOC and the R&A-----in other words it might be the home of our national golf association, the USGA. One can see, USGA president Thomas (who seems to have been an early principal of NGLA) put an end to that notion.

[Joe Bausch]

Joe:

The thing that really interested me in one of those American Cricketer articles that mentioned "a Monte Cristo Golf Club" is how some seemed to assume early on that the idea of NGLA may've been an actual national golf course and club something like TOC and the R&A-----in other words it might be the home of our national golf association, the USGA. One can see, USGA president Thomas (who seems to have been an early principal of NGLA) put an end to that notion.

That is interesting Tom.  Would you like to conjecture about how things might be now if NGLA became something like TOC and the R&A?

[TEPaul]

"That is interesting Tom.  Would you like to conjecture about how things might be now if NGLA became something like TOC and the R&A?"


Joe:

Well, that would obviously entail an awful lot of conjecture and speculation on my part. But for now it's probably important to understand better where Macdonald was coming from when it came to his philosophy about what a governing body in golf should be and how it should be run.

There's no question at all that his dream for American golf was to model it on TOC, the R&A and the so-called "spirit" of the game as he once knew it and loved it in the early 1870s when he was at St. Andrews University.

In his own book it is clear to tell that the acceptance speech of incoming USGA president Roberston in 1901 was like a stake through his heart and for his dream of what golf should be in America.

"I know that we are all grateful for what England and Scotland have done for us in exporting this game for our delectation and amusement; but I think we should guard against being too much restricted and held down by precedent and tradition. I fear that is the fault of the game on the other side. Do not let us be afraid of innovations simply because they are innovations. Nothing can come to America and stay very long without being Americanized in character; and I hope this game will be on exception to this rule. I should like to see American golf."
USGA President Robertson, 1901


So, if one of Macdonald's original ideas for NGLA was to be something in America along the lines of The Royal and Ancient Golf Club of St. Andrews and the R&A, the administrative body of golf outside the USA, it would not surprise me much. That perhaps could have, at least in his mind, helped solidify his position of not just how he might come to be considered the "Father" of American golf course architecture but perhaps even the "Father" of American golf itself!

The fact that Macdonald, who in 1895-96 would be the first vice president of the USGA, but never became its president, probably tells most of the rest of the story about what went wrong for his vision of the way things should be over here with him leading the way.

[RJ_Daley]

Joe, do you know who was responsible for the article placement or re-writing in the "Dallas Morning News" as taken from "The Sun"?  Isn't this a case of taking the original article and adding a few more lines or quotes?  And, do you know who wrote "the Sun" article?  

I'm curious about the dynamics of placing such a detailed article on golf course development and design in what still must have been the outter limits in this country of golf savvy readers.   Is this an article in Dallas designed to "gin up" interest among that population and perhaps lay the ground work for a club there?  

That besides the fact that pretty much each paragraph from the article seems like it would have an idea worth a whole new thread.  



It is hard on the eyes to read...  

[TEPaul]

RJ:

If you ask me, many of those very early golf articles in America are not just reporting on all that's going on with golf in America, they are really writing about what golf actually is or the various ideas of the way it should be in the future. The reason seems obvious----eg there were so few over here back then who had played it at all or even seen it played.

I'm doing a lot of research these days through all kinds of golf reporting in the very early days of golf in America and I also notice that a good deal of these emigrant Scottish and English professionals are all the time being asked to play exhibition matches here there and everywhere. I think the reason they were and so many came to watch them was because there were so few in America then (certainly compared to now) who had much idea even HOW the game was played; in other words how a golfer hit good shots at all.

[Joe Bausch]

Joe, do you know who was responsible for the article placement or re-writing in the "Dallas Morning News" as taken from "The Sun"?  Isn't this a case of taking the original article and adding a few more lines or quotes?  And, do you know who wrote "the Sun" article?  

I'm curious about the dynamics of placing such a detailed article on golf course development and design in what still must have been the outter limits in this country of golf savvy readers.   Is this an article in Dallas designed to "gin up" interest among that population and perhaps lay the ground work for a club there?  

That besides the fact that pretty much each paragraph from the article seems like it would have an idea worth a whole new thread.  



It is hard on the eyes to read...  

RJ:  I don't know how that article got from the New York Sun into the Dallas Morning News. 

I've never seen the actual article from the New York Sun, but I'm reasonably confident from reading an article from the 1906 American Cricketer (April) that it was likely written by J. H. Fitzpatrick, who was the golf editor of the Sun.

[Joe Bausch]

That article seemed to make it some other places.  Here is a scaled down version of it from the September 18, 1905 issue of the Aberdeen Daily News (Aberdeen, South Dakota!):

[Peter Pallotta]

Joe - just fyi, I read the Sun article a while back, and I don't remember a byline (and I don't think I've ever seen a byline on any of those articles in the NY papers before 1910).  So thanks for the info on Fitzpatrick.  If you're interested in the Sun article, I found it by going to the Library of Congress (www.loc.gov) and then going to their archives section and then to the historic newspapers link.

Peter 

[Joe Bausch]

Joe - just fyi, I read the Sun article a while back, and I don't remember a byline (and I don't think I've ever seen a byline on any of those articles in the NY papers before 1910).  So thanks for the info on Fitzpatrick.  If you're interested in the Sun article, I found it by going to the Library of Congress (www.loc.gov) and then going to their archives section and then to the historic newspapers link.

Peter 

P2, that is very good info about the LOC online stuff.  Thanks for the update!

Edit:  I've now read the Sun article at the LOC web page and the Dallas Morning News is identical to it.

[Joel_Stewart]

Perhaps this should have been the name for what is now known as Old MacDonald in Bandon.  Seems like it would have fit.

[TEPaul]

Joel:

No kidding. Good point. Maybe they'll consider it. The newspaper documentation is real and all here! The only problem is they were talking about NGLA before it had a name.   

[Jim_Kennedy]

Hopefully they won't consider it because they'd have to share the name with a course in Texas, one in Nicarauga, and a cheap box set of golf clubs made in China. 

[Mike_Cirba]

Here is the original New York Sun article from 1905.

I think a very, very important point was missed in prior discussion.   It goes on to state,

"No one is better qualified to approach the assigned task, for besides being a true golfer, Mr. Macdonald has had a wide experience in planning out links.   He laid out the first course of the Chicago Golf Club, at Wheaton, where the distances and the order of the holes was the same as at old St. Andrews, and he has been called in as friendly adviser  whenever a noted course has been in construction in the east.

[Mike_Cirba]

Also, at least one account (this from American Golfer in 1925 give credit to Charles B. Macdonald, not Dev Emmett, for the Riddell's Bay course in Bermuda.

http://www.la84foundation.org/SportsLibrary/AmericanGolfer/1925/ag281i.pdf

Like the Mid-Ocean course the Riddell's Bay course, located across Hamilton Harbor from the city of Hamilton and easily accessible either by a short powerboat ferry or carriage trip, is of eighteen holes. Also laid out by Charles B. Macdonald this course is a favorite with practically all of the golfers in Bermuda's exclusive cottage colony and is played daily by large numbers from the hotels during the winter season.

Its location with relation to the picturesque bay from which it takes its name is such as to afford many delightful water views and it has a number of trying natural hazards. The total length of the Riddell's Bay course is 5,112 yards; 2,448 out and 2,664 in. Par is sixty-six; evenly divided, thirty-three strokes out and thirty-three in.

[Mike_Cirba]

A really cool picture of the original 10th green at Riddell's Bay, which looks to be a "Short", can be seen at this link;

http://www.la84foundation.org/SportsLibrary/AmericanGolfer/1928/ag314r.pdf