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Anthony_Nysse

  • Karma: +0/-0
Trump
« on: February 17, 2009, 07:05:51 AM »
How can he be buying golf courses when this is happening?

http://www.foxnews.com/story/0,2933,494146,00.html

Tony Nysse
Asst. Supt.
Colonial CC
Ft. Worth, TX
Anthony J. Nysse
Director of Golf Courses & Grounds
Apogee Club
Hobe Sound, FL

cary lichtenstein

  • Karma: +0/-0
Re: Trump
« Reply #1 on: February 17, 2009, 08:29:29 AM »
What I find incredible is that he can arrange financing. 3x Chapter 11 filing should establish that he can't manage, why are the banks continued to give this man money??????????

I guess they haven't burnt their hand on the Trump Stove enough times!!!!!!!!!
Live Jupiter, Fl, was  4 handicap, played top 100 US, top 75 World. Great memories, no longer play, 4 back surgeries. I don't miss a lot of things about golf, life is simpler with out it. I miss my 60 degree wedge shots, don't miss nasty weather, icing, back spasms. Last course I played was Augusta

Michael Blake

  • Karma: +0/-0
Re: Trump
« Reply #2 on: February 17, 2009, 09:10:57 AM »
Pretty sure I read somewhere when he filed last time that Trump Entertainment makes up around 1% of his portfolio.

Of course all the papers and news magazine shows headline, "Trump files bankruptcy!"  A bit misleading.




Ronald Montesano

  • Karma: +0/-0
Re: Trump
« Reply #3 on: February 17, 2009, 09:26:13 AM »
Absolutely agree with #3.  What gets the news for this guy is the very minor portion of his holdings:  the entertainment gig.  I don't know if the golf fits within that portion.  He seems bent on an almost Gatsby-esque turnaround, except for the brashness, the loudness, the hairness, come to think of it, the everything.  It is sad that he associates precise playdough shapes only with good golf courses.  There must have been some childhood trauma related to wild, unkempt spaces that affected him for a lifetime.
Coming in 2024
~Elmira Country Club
~Soaring Eagles
~Bonavista
~Indian Hills
~Maybe some more!!

Ronald Montesano

  • Karma: +0/-0
Re: Trump
« Reply #4 on: February 17, 2009, 09:27:11 AM »
Another question:  Does he solicit proposals from architectural/design firms or does he simply pick his guy and move ahead?
Coming in 2024
~Elmira Country Club
~Soaring Eagles
~Bonavista
~Indian Hills
~Maybe some more!!

archie_struthers

  • Karma: +0/-0
Re: Trump
« Reply #5 on: February 17, 2009, 09:29:42 AM »
 ??? ??? ???


The State of NJ  is on a roll ,  as the government moves into the realm of personal property ownership .  If they get lucky they can take over Resorts....then Trump and maybe even Revel at some point .  The politico's have morphed into investment bankers ...  

Lou_Duran

  • Karma: +0/-0
Re: Trump
« Reply #6 on: February 17, 2009, 10:05:50 AM »
If every developer and real estate investor was disqualified from doing deals based on defaulting on a past loan or going bankrupt on a property there wouldn't be developers or investors.  Each deal stands on its own, and new investors and lenders are always looking for new opportunities.  Just don't take the government as your partner.

   

Jim Nugent

Re: Trump
« Reply #7 on: February 17, 2009, 04:23:38 PM »
I thought (but don't know) that Trump's entire empire was heavily built on debt and leverage.  If so, I bet he is facing huge problems, not just in entertainment, but in many other of his holdings. 

cary lichtenstein

  • Karma: +0/-0
Re: Trump
« Reply #8 on: February 17, 2009, 04:32:59 PM »
I thought (but don't know) that Trump's entire empire was heavily built on debt and leverage.  If so, I bet he is facing huge problems, not just in entertainment, but in many other of his holdings. 

I agree, and the bigger they are and more obnoxious, the harder they fall
Live Jupiter, Fl, was  4 handicap, played top 100 US, top 75 World. Great memories, no longer play, 4 back surgeries. I don't miss a lot of things about golf, life is simpler with out it. I miss my 60 degree wedge shots, don't miss nasty weather, icing, back spasms. Last course I played was Augusta

Michael Blake

  • Karma: +0/-0
Re: Trump
« Reply #9 on: February 17, 2009, 05:04:05 PM »
Just saw a piece on him and an interview with him as well.

He was a very minority shareholder in Trump Entertainment (casinos).
He had absolutely nothing to do with management.
He hasn't been on the Board in years.

When he heard the Board wanted to declare bankruptcy, he disagreed and made an offer to purchase Trump Entertainment.  The Board rejected the offer.

Trump Entertainment is significantly less than 1% of his holdings.

Also said Trump Organization has loads and loads of cash and is buying real estate for pennies on the dollar, getting some great deals.

Steve Lang

  • Karma: +0/-0
Re: Trump
« Reply #10 on: February 17, 2009, 05:46:07 PM »
 8)

The Trump name only goes on the "best of its kind" service or product..



love or hate, you gotta admit Trump can blow his own horn!
Inverness (Toledo, OH) cathedral clock inscription: "God measures men by what they are. Not what they in wealth possess.  That vibrant message chimes afar.
The voice of Inverness"

Garland Bayley

  • Karma: +0/-0
Re: Trump
« Reply #11 on: February 17, 2009, 08:23:07 PM »
Just a reminder that No Trump always surpases Trump













in bridge bidding.
"I enjoy a course where the challenges are contained WITHIN it, and recovery is part of the game  not a course where the challenge is to stay ON it." Jeff Warne

Ronald Montesano

  • Karma: +0/-0
Re: Trump
« Reply #12 on: February 17, 2009, 09:19:44 PM »
Steve Lang!

You should be banned for putting that picture on this site.
Coming in 2024
~Elmira Country Club
~Soaring Eagles
~Bonavista
~Indian Hills
~Maybe some more!!

Chris Cupit

  • Karma: +0/-0
Re: Trump
« Reply #13 on: February 17, 2009, 10:15:41 PM »
Just saw a piece on him and an interview with him as well.

He was a very minority shareholder in Trump Entertainment (casinos).
He had absolutely nothing to do with management.
He hasn't been on the Board in years.

When he heard the Board wanted to declare bankruptcy, he disagreed and made an offer to purchase Trump Entertainment.  The Board rejected the offer.

Trump Entertainment is significantly less than 1% of his holdings.

Also said Trump Organization has loads and loads of cash and is buying real estate for pennies on the dollar, getting some great deals.


I agree the headlines can be misleading but this is from today's Wall Street Journal:

1.  "Mr. Trump holds 28% of the company's stock, according to a recent filing."  That's a pretty significant stake.
2.  "Mr. Trump, founder of the company, resigned as chairman of the board late Friday night, saying he disagreed with the actions of bondholders...His daughter, Ivanka Trump, also resigned from the board."  He resigned a few days ago.
3.  It was not neccessarily recently that he offered to buy it.  The quote from the Donald is, "Some time ago, I made an offer to buy the company..."  The article is unclear as to when and under what terms he proposed a buy out.
4.  The estimate that this aspect of his "empire" represents less than 1% of his net worth comes from the donald himself--he has been know to exagerate his successes and minimize his setbacks :D

Damon Groves

Re: Trump
« Reply #14 on: February 17, 2009, 11:22:41 PM »
On the subject of golf, while I have not played his courses back East, Trump National LA is a joke. He needs to get out of the golf business all together. The holes have very little strategic element given how narrow the fairways are. Does it have beautiful views? Yes. But that does not make a golf course. The fake waterfalls are an abomination but fall in place with everything else tacky and over the top with Trump.

Jim Nugent

Re: Trump
« Reply #15 on: February 17, 2009, 11:58:57 PM »
Just saw a piece on him and an interview with him as well.

He was a very minority shareholder in Trump Entertainment (casinos).
He had absolutely nothing to do with management.
He hasn't been on the Board in years.

When he heard the Board wanted to declare bankruptcy, he disagreed and made an offer to purchase Trump Entertainment.  The Board rejected the offer.

Trump Entertainment is significantly less than 1% of his holdings.

Also said Trump Organization has loads and loads of cash and is buying real estate for pennies on the dollar, getting some great deals.


Trump is one of the last people I would listen to as a reliable source on Trump.  Just read what he says about his golf courses - according to him they are better than Pebble, the best in FL, best clubs in the nation - and you see how deluded he is in that area.

I will be amazed if his Scotland project ever gets completed. 

Lou_Duran

  • Karma: +0/-0
Re: Trump
« Reply #16 on: February 18, 2009, 09:42:11 AM »
Gee, I've only played one Trump course, the first 18 at Bedminster, and I thought it was wonderful.  The three members I played with all had met Trump on the course, may have played with him, and had nothing but great things to say about the man.  From this single experience I conclude that Trump is a golf genius and he should take over the industry.

A former high official of a prominent federal agency used to quote Trump frequently.  One of his favorites: "show me a good loser and I'll show you a LOSER".  If nothing else, we should at least give Trump some credit for not crying to Washington with his hand out.  He even opined once that the feds should levy a one-time wealth tax on the richest Americans to retire the federal debt.  To the best of my knowledge, politically, the man swings from the left!  Why so much hate?

henrye

Re: Trump
« Reply #17 on: February 18, 2009, 10:33:56 AM »
He even opined once that the feds should levy a one-time wealth tax on the richest Americans to retire the federal debt. 

Got to give the guy credit for those smarts - under any legitimate review, no way he makes the cut. :D

Tom_Doak

  • Karma: +3/-1
Re: Trump
« Reply #18 on: February 18, 2009, 10:42:57 AM »
Lou:

Mr. Trump, like most real estate developers, does not have to go to the government.  All of his deals are set up so if it's successful, he makes a killing, but if circumstances turn unfavorable, the banks (or in the case of Trump Entertainment, the shareholders who believed his hype) take the losses.

Incidentally, I was thinking in the shower this morning, one of the biggest subsidies in the whole of  American business is the subsidy given to banks known as the mortgage interest deduction.  I think I will ask the federal government to give golfers a tax deduction for every dollar they spend on belonging to a golf club.

Lou_Duran

  • Karma: +0/-0
Re: Trump
« Reply #19 on: February 18, 2009, 12:00:48 PM »
Tom,

You know that I like you personally and think extremely high of the architectural talents you demonstrate consistently in your work.  But, though you have had a lot of experience with real estate developers, you seem to have some misunderstanding on how business works.

Trump may be able to swing better terms because of his record, but most developers are typically required to put their own money or property into deals, particularly if non-recourse financing (no personal liability in the event of default) is involved.  Even during the 1980s days of the S & L debacle when non-recourse financing was common, developers were expected to put money or property into the deal, and when things went upside down they not only lost their equity contribution, but also had a huge tax liability for debt forgiveness (which the IRS considers as income).  To suggest that developers don't face significant loses is not correct.

For example, you know of your friend Jack Nicklaus and his experience playing developer which nearly wiped him out.  Others: I know one prominent developer who put hundreds of prime commercial land his family had owned for decades as collateral for a site development loan and lost it all when tract sales failed to materialize.  I am friends with another who barely escaped jail because the prosecutor alleged that he had willfully falsified his loan application (a valuation of assets issue which nearly every developer and investor faced when real estate values collapsed with the S & L industry).  This guy lost some 20 pieces of land, all of which he had purchased with significant equity contributions, and one apartment complex for which he had personal liability and was hounded for many years by a purchaser of the debt.  A third acquaintance lost his interests in several suburban office buildings he built and was forced to sell his 5,000+ s.f. estate home and move into a small tract home with his large young family to satisfy various claims against him.

What the successful real estate developers seem to have is cajones and the ability to get back on their feet after being knocked down a few times.  Two of the three above have recovered very nicely; I've lost contact with the third.

As to the deductibility of mortgage interest, no doubt that it has served as a subsidy to business.  However, the reason it is there is the taxpayer- the consumer who votes and receives the biggest benefit.  I agree with Mike Hendren who opined on another thread that the "ownership society" is a misnomer.

The same is true of the bank bailout.  Bank owners, the stockholders, are not being bailed out.  Bank owners just like GM and Ford stockholders have been essentially wiped-out.  Depositors, employees of banks, acquiring (often politically connected) instituions and, theoretically (I disagree), the American economy are the beneficiaries.  Ditto for the investment banks, Fanny and Freddie.

It is the populist notion that the government is saving the fat cats, but the reality is that government is largely saving itself- Dodd, Frank, Rangel, et. al. who are the real fat cats with fabulous pay, benefits, and lifelong career protection.  And as we saw from President Clinton's and Senator Daschle's experiences, the seven, eight and nine figure golden parachutes ain't bad either. 

BTW, I would much prefer a tax system that is designed solely to raise revenue as opposed to socially engineer a society with government choosing the winners and losers.  Figure out how much the government really needs, get rid of all special interest deductions, lower rates, and tax ALL of EVERYONE's income regardless of its source accordingly.  It won't happen in my lifetime, likely never, but I dare dream.

Sam Maryland

Re: Trump
« Reply #20 on: February 18, 2009, 04:03:25 PM »
So in 20 years Joe Ogilvie will be PGA Tour Commish and Ginn will be back to sponsoring events??  ;-)

Tom_Doak

  • Karma: +3/-1
Re: Trump
« Reply #21 on: February 18, 2009, 05:21:46 PM »
Lou:

No doubt real estate is an endeavour where you win big and/or lose big.  But I have seen enough of the business not to feel too sorry for these noble risk-takers.  Most of them have lived the high life for a good part of their lives, too, which you summed up a lot more briefly than when talking about their failures ... you will be glad to know that Mr. Nicklaus landed on his feet, too.  And in some cases these developers live it up with other people's money.  [The Porsche Cayenne "site vehicles" which were so popular just a couple of years ago are a small example; and I suspect if someone audited Mr. Trump's use of helicopters they would find the shareholders of Trump Entertainment paid for a good share.]

As for politicians, we are all well aware of how they cash in when they leave office (or leave, and come back, and leave again).  This is hardly confined to the two Democrats you mentioned ... Mr. Cheney and Mr. Rumsfeld did pretty well for themselves, too.

My personal view is that instead of term limits, all Senators should stay in office until they are voted out, and then they should be quarantined, at Government expense.  In the end it would probably save us a lot of money.

Jaeger Kovich

  • Karma: +0/-0
Re: Trump
« Reply #22 on: February 18, 2009, 09:14:52 PM »
I was at a golf school down in Naples, FL and heard a story about Trump and golf that you might like...

One of his fellow pros was playing in pro-am and happened to be in Donald's group. After seeing Donald kick his ball in the trees a few times, his playing partner went over and asked him to stop. Donald replied "I cheat on my wife. I cheat in business. I'm gonna cheat in golf."

Ronald Montesano

  • Karma: +0/-0
Re: Trump
« Reply #23 on: February 18, 2009, 09:19:02 PM »
Lou,
A little street Spanish for you.  Cajones are drawers, while cojones are nuts and berries.

Ron M.
Coming in 2024
~Elmira Country Club
~Soaring Eagles
~Bonavista
~Indian Hills
~Maybe some more!!

Damon Groves

Re: Trump
« Reply #24 on: February 18, 2009, 09:57:20 PM »
Lou:

Mr. Trump, like most real estate developers, does not have to go to the government.  All of his deals are set up so if it's successful, he makes a killing, but if circumstances turn unfavorable, the banks (or in the case of Trump Entertainment, the shareholders who believed his hype) take the losses.

Incidentally, I was thinking in the shower this morning, one of the biggest subsidies in the whole of  American business is the subsidy given to banks known as the mortgage interest deduction.  I think I will ask the federal government to give golfers a tax deduction for every dollar they spend on belonging to a golf club.

Tom -

Could you please call the Governator in Cali and tell him how unfair it is to tax us golfers as has been proposed in the pending budget? Tough days ahead in California.

Damon.