Why is this not a bad choice for laying out a golf hole?

« **on:** February 13, 2009, 03:02:11 PM »

I must admit I have not been there, but this picture (and the one taken from behind the hole) make it look as though there is no recovery from going off the left cliff/ledge.

Isn't that sort of like running the fairway down the OB fence?

What is the point of running the hole along the cliff edge?

Could a better hole have been laid out to the right of where the current hole runs, thereby leaving a recovery shot from the lower tier?

Or, is there just too much slope and rock to do anything beside the hole as laid out?

« **Reply #1 on:** February 13, 2009, 03:09:01 PM »

I don't see anything wrong, is there something wrong with the last hole at Pebble Beach ?

plenty of room right, just don't miss it left... or learn to play golf.

if you move the fairway right, then the course would be like Torrey Pines, nice views, spectacular setting but the golf hole has nothing to do with the dramatic element

« **Reply #2 on:** February 13, 2009, 03:15:20 PM »

Just so long as anyone doing night mowing of that crosshatching FW pattern isn't drunk or doesn't have good headlights. Same goes for insisting on sobriety of the cartballer driving near the edge.

« **Reply #3 on:** February 13, 2009, 03:25:57 PM »

there, much better!

« **Reply #4 on:** February 13, 2009, 03:36:11 PM »

I love it. Looks like 14 at PAC. I would lay up. Play for bogey but have a putters chance at par.

Anthony

« **Reply #5 on:** February 13, 2009, 03:50:30 PM »

There is a difference between a lateral water hazard and OB!

Or, in this case a reload because of a certain unplayable lie.

« **Reply #6 on:** February 13, 2009, 03:53:18 PM »

Quote from: Philippe Binette on February 13, 2009, 03:09:01 PM

I don't see anything wrong, is there something wrong with the last hole at Pebble Beach ?

plenty of room right, just don't miss it left... or learn to play golf.

if you move the fairway right, then the course would be like Torrey Pines, nice views, spectacular setting but the golf hole has nothing to do with the dramatic element

Philippe,

Tell me the 16th at Cypress doesn't have dramatic! But somehow, it also has safe! Taking a short cut on the lower shelf and then approaching over the rocks is not dramatic?

« **Reply #7 on:** February 13, 2009, 03:55:59 PM »

Quote from: Anthony Gray on February 13, 2009, 03:36:11 PM

I love it. Looks like 14 at PAC. I would lay up. Play for bogey but have a putters chance at par.

Anthony

Anthony,

I Neglected to give the hole stats. It is 320 yards. You saying you would try to reach in 3?

« **Reply #8 on:** February 13, 2009, 04:13:32 PM »

Quote from: Philippe Binette on February 13, 2009, 03:09:01 PM

... or learn to play golf.

I am sorry Philippe, but I have to wonder why people like you and Bob Cupp are in the golf course design business. If you are creating courses for the single digit handicap golfer and better, they it seems to me you are enabling the death of golf. Alister MacKenzie somehow managed to create three golf courses in the top ten US without insisting all the players on the course "learn to play golf".

Sincerely yours,

Frank Discussion

« **Reply #9 on:** February 13, 2009, 04:30:28 PM »

Sorry Garland, but 16th at Cypress uses the cliff more then enough. And I see plenty of room to play safe on this hole (they even put a bunker between the cliff and the fairway to hold up balls)

As far as the 'Learn to play golf' line, I often say that people are thaught to hit the golf ball but not at playing golf. If you are not accurate with a long club and a 30 handicap player...

Understand you have to play the hole safely, hit 7 iron of the tee if needed, hit four little shot to reach the green (if it's a par 4) make 1 or 2 putt... double bogey on a tough hole... that's better than your average...

Learning to play golf is about understanding your limitations, whether you are Tiger Woods or like my mom who hit it 70 yards in the air, and being able to manage it to achieve the best score possible with your potential.

That means that use strategy when you are a weaker player, just like Mackenzie said.

sadly, people spend hours on the range and no time on strategy

« **Reply #10 on:** February 13, 2009, 04:36:25 PM »

What I love about this picture is how dramatic the cliffs to the left make that tee shot, compared to some other ball-gobbling feature. It's scarier than a pond, even though a shot going there would be just as lost. I think, Garland, that drama like that would be hard to resist while designing a hole on such a property. I understand your concern about the hole, but as a high-handicapper myself I'd be willing to bet the loss of a ball against the enjoyment of hitting a drive to that fairway. I also like how a shot to the right side would result in having a go at that green aiming directly back towards the cliff. Good fun, that !

« **Reply #11 on:** February 13, 2009, 04:51:42 PM »

Similar to Harbour Town's 18th, which I believe still has OB lining the entire right side?

« **Reply #12 on:** February 13, 2009, 04:54:15 PM »

Quote from: Garland Bayley on February 13, 2009, 03:55:59 PM

Quote from: Anthony Gray on February 13, 2009, 03:36:11 PM

I love it. Looks like 14 at PAC. I would lay up. Play for bogey but have a putters chance at par.

Anthony

Anthony,

I Neglected to give the hole stats. It is 320 yards. You saying you would try to reach in 3?

At 320. It is a fair hole.

Anthony

« **Reply #13 on:** February 13, 2009, 04:56:57 PM »

Quote from: Garland Bayley on February 13, 2009, 04:13:32 PM

Quote from: Philippe Binette on February 13, 2009, 03:09:01 PM

... or learn to play golf.

I am sorry Philippe, but I have to wonder why people like you and Bob Cupp are in the golf course design business. If you are creating courses for the single digit handicap golfer and better, they it seems to me you are enabling the death of golf. Alister MacKenzie somehow managed to create three golf courses in the top ten US without insisting all the players on the course "learn to play golf".

Sincerely yours,

Frank Discussion

Dear Frank,

The "learn to play golf" comment is very rude. But................... funny as hell.

Ben Dover

« **Reply #14 on:** February 13, 2009, 04:57:49 PM »

Quote from: Philippe Binette on February 13, 2009, 04:30:28 PM

Sorry Garland, but 16th at Cypress uses the cliff more then enough.

I have no idea what you mean by that.

Quote

And I see plenty of room to play safe on this hole (they even put a bunker between the cliff and the fairway to hold up balls)

As far as the 'Learn to play golf' line, I often say that people are thaught to hit the golf ball but not at playing golf. If you are not accurate with a long club and a 30 handicap player...

Understand you have to play the hole safely, hit 7 iron of the tee if needed, hit four little shot to reach the green (if it's a par 4) make 1 or 2 putt... double bogey on a tough hole... that's better than your average...

Learning to play golf is about understanding your limitations, whether you are Tiger Woods or like my mom who hit it 70 yards in the air, and being able to manage it to achieve the best score possible with your potential.

That means that use strategy when you are a weaker player, just like Mackenzie said.

sadly, people spend hours on the range and no time on strategy

I see what you are saying as being once again from the viewpoint of the low handicap player. If the average handicap is around 20, and if me holding such a handicap is indicative of me being an average player, then I am here to tell you that your advice says "stop playing golf".

I, and many others like me are perfectly capable of hitting a 7 iron of that cliff. For that matter, I regularly hit wedge shots in that direction. One of my regular foursome with a lower handicap will face such an obstacle and either so overcompensate as to hit it into the junk on the opposite side or drill it directly to the obstacle.

Average handicappers steer away from harzards all the time. Don't tell me they are so stupid as to not understand their limitations and compensate for them.The reason they're on the range is so that can find a way to keep from hitting a 7 iron off your favorite cliff.

Lastly, you best repent from what your wrote, lest I sick George Pazin on you.

« **Reply #15 on:** February 13, 2009, 05:19:26 PM »

Quote from: Phil McDade on February 13, 2009, 04:51:42 PM

Similar to Harbour Town's 18th, which I believe still has OB lining the entire right side?

Phil,

Is this to say that you are a fan of Pete Dye?

Is this to say that Pete Dye is the average golfers friend?

Tell me about the analogous hole at Long Cove, not a Harbour Town.

« **Reply #16 on:** February 13, 2009, 05:36:53 PM »

Quote from: Kirk Gill on February 13, 2009, 04:36:25 PM

What I love about this picture is how dramatic the cliffs to the left make that tee shot, compared to some other ball-gobbling feature. It's scarier than a pond, even though a shot going there would be just as lost. I think, Garland, that drama like that would be hard to resist while designing a hole on such a property. I understand your concern about the hole, but as a high-handicapper myself I'd be willing to bet the loss of a ball against the enjoyment of hitting a drive to that fairway. I also like how a shot to the right side would result in having a go at that green aiming directly back towards the cliff. Good fun, that !

Kirk,

Is not all the drama still there by routing the hole around that second lower cliff to the right of the current fairway? The difference being that you have a recovery if you go off it.

« **Reply #17 on:** February 13, 2009, 05:38:31 PM »

Garland:

If this isn't a good place for a golf hole, or using a cliff in general for that matter, then Tom Doak made a mistake when he designed and built Cape Kidnappers--I think he did okay there don't you?

« **Reply #18 on:** February 13, 2009, 05:42:52 PM »

I like this hole, especially at 320. Given that the vast majority of players hit a slice, I think they got it right. Flip it around with the cliff on the right and it's questionable.

« **Reply #19 on:** February 13, 2009, 05:45:15 PM »

Scott,

What we see here is a lot of room to the right of the hole that could be used for IMO just as dramatic a hole, but a better hole. At CK, you see the golfable land being used for golf holes and the ungolfable land being unused. Not a good analogy IMO.

I am not an expert, but I think the rerouting on the available land I propose would work. I asked in case someone can tell me it can't.

« **Reply #20 on:** February 13, 2009, 05:45:54 PM »

Quote from: Brian Laurent on February 13, 2009, 05:42:52 PM

I like this hole, especially at 320. Given that the vast majority of players hit a slice, I think they got it right. Flip it around with the cliff on the right and it's questionable.

Brian,

I am, as many on this site are, a lefty.

« **Reply #21 on:** February 13, 2009, 05:49:20 PM »

Quote from: Garland Bayley on February 13, 2009, 05:45:54 PM

Quote from: Brian Laurent on February 13, 2009, 05:42:52 PM
I like this hole, especially at 320. Given that the vast majority of players hit a slice, I think they got it right. Flip it around with the cliff on the right and it's questionable.

Brian,

I am, as many on this site are, a lefty.

OK......I'm starting to get it...............this may not be the best hole for Garland.

Anthony

« **Reply #22 on:** February 13, 2009, 05:49:31 PM »

"What is the point of running the hole along the cliff edge?

Could a better hole have been laid out to the right of where the current hole runs, thereby leaving a recovery shot from the lower tier?"

Garland:

I sure hope you're kidding with those two questions. That has to be one of the coolest looking holes I've ever seen. Where is that and who did it?

« **Reply #23 on:** February 13, 2009, 05:49:42 PM »

I see no problem with that hole. If the hole was moved right, away from the cl ff's edge, it would strike me as a complete waste of a dramatic natural feature. Besides, the hole is only 320 yards, which means you can hit a 3 iron and have a wedge to the green. If you hit it to the bottom of the cliff with a 3 iron it is entirely your fault and I have no problem with the punishment.

« **Reply #24 on:** February 13, 2009, 05:51:40 PM »

TEP,

But yet, it hardly holds up against anything at Fernadina Beach.

News:

Garland Bayley

Philippe Binette

RJ_Daley

Eric Smith

Anthony Gray

Garland Bayley

Garland Bayley

Garland Bayley

Garland Bayley

Philippe Binette

Kirk Gill

Phil McDade

Anthony Gray

Anthony Gray

Garland Bayley

Garland Bayley

Garland Bayley

Scott Witter

Brian Laurent

Garland Bayley

Garland Bayley

Anthony Gray

TEPaul

Matt Kardash

Garland Bayley

An Error Has Occurred!