[Steve_ Shaffer]

Unfortunately for AS, as the weather gets warmer, the course conditions improve. Since the tourist season in AZ usually ends around April when the weather starts to get warmer, does it make sense for AS to be be open from April to October, the warmer weather months in AZ?

[David Druzisky]

mike,

Yes..I guess by saying "real" I am putting it in a general classification of good to great golf vs other.  But I was not meaning to make a point or opinion as I feel most on the site like or appreciate the course and I did not want to bring up much in that regard on this thread.

Since you asked...it is one of the few courses in that market area that "really" can inspire thought, provide a sporting challenge, exhibits many interesting design features in application and on top of that - especially for that market - was not created to add premium to adjacent housing.  That all adds up to me as "real golf" which is fun and interesting.  Not only eye candy.  Plus when you live in PHX eventually you realize most of the courses over service you and a simple show up, pay your fee, hit some warm ups and then play scenario is all you really want.  Albeit by default, that is what you get at AS.

The place - from a business standpoint - could have been a great 'get away" from the lower desert of the Phoenix area or even Tucson.  If the overall package was better put together with a quality lodging facility, combined with gambling it would have been doing much better.  There would have been a bunch of mens clubs using it for their weekend events and other similar users.  It is a great place to go to during overseeding season and again as it is starting to get hot down in the valley.  Unfortunately at elevation 3250 it is just not quite high enough to keep cool enough in July/August ans still gets really cold in the winter.  That has a lot to do with the struggles they have had through the years too with turf.

In the end, even with how good the golf course is, the experience provided just doesn't carry the business.

[ChipRoyce]

I'm on a roll; there are rumors floating around Traverse City that High Pointe won't open this year, either.

If there was ever a candidate for a GCA group owned course, my vote is with High Pointe.

JC,
Funny I was just thinking about those old GCA group owned threads this morning.  IMO, none of those "hey lets all build a golf course" ideas had a chance of working but they might now that the whole world has turned upside down.  There are many many MANY courses available for very little money.  The trick right now is sifting through all of them and finding an operational business plan that will breakeven.

So nine months ago I would have said a GCA group thing had no chance... but now?  Maybe.

Peter - I think you are spot on.

IMHO, a GCA owned club could be done with a very reasonable capital outlay and have the following characteristics:

1) Semi-Private: Allow outside play to supplement cash flow and allow the unwashed masses (of which many of us belong to) to see and enjoy our philosophy of GCA

2) In a warm weather locale: Allow for play as much of the year as possible

3) Close to a major airport: Reasonably low cost transportation for a national membership. Sand Hills seems nice but hard to support on a frequent basis.

[Mike_DeVries]

I just heard that yesterday.

They have closed it for 90 days ... but have not decided what to do after that.

I'm on a roll; there are rumors floating around Traverse City that High Pointe won't open this year, either.

Tom,
This is sad to hear -- I haven't seen Apache Stronghold and had hoped to sometime in the near future.  Of course, High Pointe is where we first met and I have always enjoyed it, so that would be especially frustrating.

In light of the economy, these are not going to be the last courses to shut down, but hopefully the quality courses can be saved, revived, and will be supported by golfers.

Mike

[Anthony Gray]

  A GCA Course. I could imagine a greens committee meeting. " I went to the greens committee meeting and a hockey game broke out"..............So count me in.

  Anthony

[Cliff Hamm]

This may be the first and only modern course on or once on any ranking list (GW's early lists) that has closed.  For a near brilliant architectural design - that's a pretty long and scary fall....

JC

Beechtree is/was ranked 91 by Golf Magazine for Places You can Play (public).

[Andy Doyle]

Does anybody have any good pictures of #18 (from tee, fairway/approach shot, green) that they would be willing to share?

I played AS about a year ago for the first (and apparently only) time.  Very, very fun golf course to play.  I had a blast and took a bunch of pictures, but my digital camera battery died after #17.  I had to shoot #18 with my cell phone and the resolution is lousy.

The view from the back tee on 18 is terrific.

Andy

[Andy Doyle]

This may be the first and only modern course on or once on any ranking list (GW's early lists) that has closed.  For a near brilliant architectural design - that's a pretty long and scary fall....

JC

Beechtree is/was ranked 91 by Golf Magazine for Places You can Play (public).

So the only two Doak courses I've played are Beechtree and Apache Stronghold.   

[George Pazin]

This may be the first and only modern course on or once on any ranking list (GW's early lists) that has closed.  For a near brilliant architectural design - that's a pretty long and scary fall....

JC

Beechtree is/was ranked 91 by Golf Magazine for Places You can Play (public).

So the only two Doak courses I've played are Beechtree and Apache Stronghold.   

Andy, please don't play any others.

My one overwhelming impression after 15 years owning my own business is that I'm amazed any business makes it. For most of us, it isn't as easy as the Bill Gateses of the world make it look. And it's sure not getting any easier.

[Steve_ Shaffer]

I wonder if a golf management company, such as Troon Golf, would be interested in leasing and managing AS.

[Tom Yost]

I think Mike Lacey's observations are similar to my own.  I don't want this to sound racist at all but I think that golf is something that is just not in the native culture and without outside help, there is really nobody looking at the course and its maintenance practices from a golfer's eye.  The similar situation existed at the Sunrise Ski area until they finally hired a management company from the ski industry.

I believe that 90 days could pass and the course could reopen and no one would notice any difference.   I truly hope this is only temporary.

Now I'm wishing I would have bought some logo attire on my last visit.

[Craig Van Egmond]

I'm certainly sorry to hear about AS, but not really surprised. I was fortunate to play it 5 times in a variety of playing conditions. It certainly was one of my favorites in Arizona.

George,

    Not all small business owners have built in advantages like wealthy and influential parents like Bill Gates.   He certainly made the most of it though.

[Lynn_Shackelford]

This is very sad.  A decent redan? heck it is one of the best I have played.

[Jim Thompson]

Not to highjack here, but you can buy Angels Crossing from the bank also and that season has an extra 100 days a year on it from High Pointe.  The math is apready done and I'd be happy to share with interested parties.  I hear Crown Golf is interested, if true, you sall should contact me as you are working off incomplete data. Cash out of pocket would be minimal and I think I know a guy who could make it work

Cheers!

JT

[RJ_Daley]

Wow Jim!  Will the bank operate the course at Angels Crossing for the year or until it sells?  We had one very similar situation in these parts close for the season, and the bank hired that super and one part time guy to just minimally mow the joint for a whole summer until buyers finally emerged. 

[cary lichtenstein]

In my humble opinion, the Apaches had no interest in ever keeping the course open beyond the driving force that initially approved it.

The conditions were always a mess, unplayable when Bette and I were there. 1 and 2 were a swamp with occasional tufts of grass here and there.

It was run like our now bankrupt banking system that everyone is complaining about.

It is not rocket science to maintain a golf course in some semblence of playable conditions. They simply blew away their return customers and I think they did it on purpose.

I hope there is no Tarp money for them

[Bruce Leland]

I wonder if a golf management company, such as Troon Golf, would be interested in leasing and managing AS.

There are rumors of some prior discussion between AS and Troon.  Haven't heard anything lately though.

[Matt_Ward]

There's little doubt on what the potential could have been for AS if sound and consistent management practices were in place. The best of my three (3) visits to AS was the first time not long after it had opened.

I'd have to concur that the ownership wasn't really smart enough to understand what they don't know and then hire people fully capable in achieving its vast potential. Sometimes people don't understand their own limitations and believe they can do it "on the cheap."

Sadly, the net result speaks for itself.

You also have an issue raised by a few on this thread that deals with the location -- there's little that would prompt someone to leave the Valley of the Sun and make the trek to Globe. Building up the incentives for going there would be a real help.

Keep in mind, the weather in Globe is often cooler in the prime winter months.

It's a pity but for any operator who thinks that "build it and they shall come" needs to realize that a more sustained and proactive plan is what can make a potential home run course in theory and turn that into reality. The folks at AS, in my mind, never understood that.

[Tim Book]

No to belabor the point regarding conditions at AS, but I had an extremely difficult time appreciating the architecture when the conditions were so abysmal.  I was only there once in Jan 04' and I am disappointed I may never get a chance to return and understand the architecture better.  I guess I am now also 0-2 on Doak designs.  Beechtree and AS.

Matt - How would you compare Black Mesa with AS?  Without seeing Black Mesa yet I imagine that are similar in their remoteness and boldness of design?  I am planning on a couple of rounds at Black Mesa in late May / early June and look forward to making the comparison myself.

[Matt_Ward]

Tim B:

In my mind, Black Mesa is the better golf course -- and I'm not counting the element of turf conditions. Black Mesa is also at nearly a mile in elevation so things are a bit different in terms of where they are located and when they can be played.

In regards to the boldness in the design -- BM is quite demanding in terms of driving the ball and in placing a huge amount of emphasis on one's approach play given the shape and contour of the greens. When you play BM I'll be most curious to your comments on the short par-4's there -- the 7th and 14th, coming quickly to mind.

I think your time line for a visit to BM is fine -- one thing you will notice is how well Pat Brockwell keeps the turf at BM in a firm and fast manner.

Tim, I've always believed BM is better than the ratings it has achieved to date. Too few people really can get over the fact that quality golf design can indeed be located in places like New Mexico. Likely, the real greatness of BM will only be solidified when the 2nd 18 being designed by Doak and company is completed and opened.

[Andy Troeger]

I agree with Matt's comments regarding Black Mesa and Apache Stronghold. I'm admittedly more familiar with Black Mesa having played it more often, but I'd probably choose it 7-3 out of 10 rounds if they were in comparable condition. Given that's not the case, its more like 9-1.

That's meant to say that Black Mesa is really that good and not be a knock on Apache Stronghold.

Late May/early June is a wonderful time to visit New Mexico. Might be a little warm depending on what you're used to, but with little humidity I doubt you'll really notice. Springs winds should have died down by then.

[Mike_Cirba]

I've never played Apache Stronghold, unfortunately, but if High Pointe is closing it's indeed a very sad event.

I'm really thankful I got over there to play it this past summer but I think such news doesn't bode well for the future and is seems that quality of architecture is unfortunately not much of a determinant on which courses will survive and which will die off...

[Steve_ Shaffer]

Mike,

Location,location, location....

Quality of architecture has nothing to do with these closings.

[Mike_Cirba]

Steve,

This location looked pretty good to me...

[Anthony Butler]

I heard that Apache Stronghold closed recently and then looked online. Golf Digest had this:


http://www.golfdigest.com/magazine/blogs/deedsandweeds/2009/02/tom-doak-course.html


It says temporarily, so will have to see what happens. Not good.

Nice timing. I am leaving for Phoenix on Wednesday and planned to play there with my uncle on the 22nd. He graduated from Dartmouth Med School on a Federal Government scholarship and had the choice of repaying them by being field surgeon in Vietnam or working on an Indian reservation. He spend 4 years working on the reservation where AS is located. It was pretty rustic in the early 70s and looks like it might be heading back that way.

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