Was Old Tom the Standard Bearer for Range-Finders?

[Tom Huckaby]

JME:

It's clear to me this ain't gonna happen in any sort of reality.  I just do believe that the rules changes I suggest (which again were not my own, but related to me by someone else) would be a MEANS that it COULD happen, if the sea-change in attitudes required took place.  But of course I am not holding my breath.

SO... this is all theoretical, rhetorical, choose whatever word you like to mean something akin to mental masturbation.

 

To that end though, of course I have found this all great fun.

Just understand, I have assumed all along all of the things you state... and in fact way way way back made a damn near identical post to Melvyn.  Hell yes, we've all been trained to play using distance, it's normal and fundamental to us, it ain't going away.

ONLY if we COULD rid courses of distance information... I still believe it would be more fun and the game would be better for it.

As for
If,however,you want to institute some rule denying range finders to those who can't hit 3 PW's out of 100 within 20 yards of the measured distance,then I'm with you.

Whoa no, I am not going down THAT road again.  I'm pretty strongly in favor of use of range finders in today's reality, for reasons stated ad nauseam.  Seems to me that we have to take the good with the bad there.   

[TEPaul]

"Bringing me full circle to "just play your game and let me play mine"."


Very good Mr. Hutto. That attitude will serve you far better on the golf course of life than some of the others who become overly concerned about things they probably shouldn't be concerned about. Looking back on my career in golf it occurs to me I've known very few successful golfers who were constant over-worryer/criticizers. There're too many other good things to think about out there.   

[Tom Huckaby]

"Bringing me full circle to "just play your game and let me play mine"."


Very good Mr. Hutto. That attitude will serve you far better on the golf course of life than some of the others who become overly concerned about things they probably shouldn't be concerned about. Looking back on my career in golf it occurs to me I've known very few successful golfers who were constant over-worryer/criticizers. There're too many other good things to think about out there.   

TEP:

Do you really think that any of this bullshit makes it out into real life?
Whoa my... if so... ever hear about the swamp land in Florida?

[Anthony Gray]

"Bringing me full circle to "just play your game and let me play mine"."


Very good Mr. Hutto. That attitude will serve you far better on the golf course of life than some of the others who become overly concerned about things they probably shouldn't be concerned about. Looking back on my career in golf it occurs to me I've known very few successful golfers who were constant over-worryer/criticizers. There're too many other good things to think about out there.   

   Over criticizers? Now I know why I never golfed with my wives or parents. WOW does life imitate golf!!

  Anthony

[Brent Hutto]

While everyone is,to some extent,a "feel" player,nowadays the entire universe of golf is designed to know a specific yardage.The "art" of hitting a golf ball 125 yards with 5 different irons depending on conditions is long since gone.

My teaching pro buddy can hit a ball 125 yards with anything from a wedge down to at least a 5-iron, maybe even a 4-iron. And he "makes" his high-school and college students learn a certain amount of that kind of shot in order to be a complete player.

And yet in a tournament round he virtually never hits a shot without knowing his carry and to-the-hole distances to the nearest yard. Even if you can hit the ball 125 yard with either a 6-iron, 8-iron or wedge depending on conditions it still makes sense to know that you're trying to hit it 125 and not 128 or 119 or some other distance. I continue to fail to see how that idea could be so unfathomable as some would pretend it to be.

TomP,

I forget who the famous player was that said something like "If I get the other guy paying attention to what I'm doing out there he's toast". But then again that was somebody worried about playing his best golf and not proving abstract points to his Internet buddies.

P.S. One of the coolest shots I've ever seen on TV was JM Olazabal at #17 at TPC Sawgrass. It was downwind to a front pin and guys had been airmailing the green with pitching wedges all day. He pulls out an 8-iron, made a swing that never got over knee high on the backswing and bloops a little chip up to about five feet. Yet before that shot he got the exact distance from his caddie and double-checked it before choosing the club. Gee, what an ultra-modern no-feel player he must be.

[Tom Huckaby]

I forget who the famous player was that said something like "If I get the other guy paying attention to what I'm doing out there he's toast". But then again that was somebody worried about playing his best golf and not proving abstract points to his Internet buddies.

OK Brent, my seconds will be contacting yours.  I cannot live with the offense.

 

Come on my friend, you've met me, played golf with me.  You have to believe that proving abstract points to my internet buddies is about as far from my reality as is declining the piece of home-made carrot cake I was just offered.

I find this to be fun and I am making no attempt to "prove" anything.  Nor do I have any real desire in this game to do anything other than live and let live.

It's just a fun concept, that's all.  I am interested in people fully understanding the concept, but as I've said many times, I fully expect most to completely disagree with it.

TH

[Brent Hutto]

Tom,

I'll stop. I've stomped on all ten toes and started over stomping them all again so enough's enough. Plus I've got to take my traditional ass-whooping from Sean Arble in a few weeks and I don't need to give him any more reason to enjoy his free beer at my expense.

[Tom Huckaby]

Tom,

I'll stop. I've stomped on all ten toes and started over stomping them all again so enough's enough. Plus I've got to take my traditional ass-whooping from Sean Arble in a few weeks and I don't need to give him any more reason to enjoy his free beer at my expense.

Have a sip for me, my friend.

 

[Jim_Kennedy]

I just do believe that the rules changes I suggest (which again were not my own, but related to me by someone else)-Tom Huckaby

Tom, Tom, Tom, what are you doing my good man? You never mentioned that these ideas weren't your own when you posted them, I know, I went back and looked!
All this time I have been giving you credit for what turns out to not even be original ideas.........



..........on second thought, now that I know you were fed a talking point and that someone else was pulling the strings, I guess I can let it go by the wayside. But just try to be yourself going forward, OK  Ms Palin. 

   

[Tom Huckaby]

Jim:

The next time I have an original thought on here will be the first time.  I am FAR from that clever, given the massive thought generation in this forum.

But go to reply 249... read this:

BUT... in discussions with a wise man... a light bulb has gone on over my head.  OK, he pulled the switch.

WHAT IF.....

The USGA and R&A each got together and made rules changes such that distance information was effectively banned?

OK it's not the most simple language, but what I meant was someone else clued me in that this could be done via rules change.

So no Palin here - although I wish I was that hot - I rather think this IS me being myself... which is giving credit where credit is due.

TH

[TEPaul]

"Over criticizers? Now I know why I never golfed with my wives or parents. WOW does life imitate golf!!"


At least a straight A or perhaps even an A+ for you Master Gray!

A followup question however. Did you say wives, as in plural? If so I hope you haven't had them at the same time or you may have to move from Memphis to where is it---Utah or Idaho where those polygamist Mormons live.

[JMEvensky]

While everyone is,to some extent,a "feel" player,nowadays the entire universe of golf is designed to know a specific yardage.The "art" of hitting a golf ball 125 yards with 5 different irons depending on conditions is long since gone.

My teaching pro buddy can hit a ball 125 yards with anything from a wedge down to at least a 5-iron, maybe even a 4-iron. And he "makes" his high-school and college students learn a certain amount of that kind of shot in order to be a complete player.

And yet in a tournament round he virtually never hits a shot without knowing his carry and to-the-hole distances to the nearest yard. Even if you can hit the ball 125 yard with either a 6-iron, 8-iron or wedge depending on conditions it still makes sense to know that you're trying to hit it 125 and not 128 or 119 or some other distance. I continue to fail to see how that idea could be so unfathomable as some would pretend it to be.

My point was that the yardage was more intuited rather than measured by a device.Anyone who's played enough either before or without Bushnells can eyeball yardage close enough for all but the very highest level player.

In the day,players "had" accurate yardage,they just didn't need a range finder to get it for them.IMO,that's what "feel" players felt-exactly how far to hit a golf ball.

[Rob Rigg]

All golfers should use the force to gauge distance - it's just that simple 

So, is this the longest thread in GCA history? If not even close, how about Top 5 or Top 10?

Props to Bob for throwing this one out there - a passionate topic indeed.

[Tom Huckaby]

All golfers should use the force to gauge distance - it's just that simple 

So, is this the longest thread in GCA history? If not even close, how about Top 5 or Top 10?

Props to Bob for throwing this one out there - a passionate topic indeed.

Rob - props to Bob for sure for phrasing it in a quite unique manner... but this issue hearkens back to SEVERAL previous threads.... it's been Melvyn's personal bugaboo for quite some time.

And I doubt this thread makes the top 10... not yet... and it's not likely going to.  But dare to dream!

TH

[Paul Stephenson]

All golfers should use the force to gauge distance - it's just that simple 

So, is this the longest thread in GCA history? If not even close, how about Top 5 or Top 10?

Props to Bob for throwing this one out there - a passionate topic indeed.

Rob,

Search "cheater line" or "Merion"

You may find your winner there.

[Tim Bert]

All golfers should use the force to gauge distance - it's just that simple 

So, is this the longest thread in GCA history? If not even close, how about Top 5 or Top 10?

Props to Bob for throwing this one out there - a passionate topic indeed.

Rob,

Search "cheater line" or "Merion"

You may find your winner there.

Currently tracking at 27th most "replies" and way too far back in the pack to count on "views."

[RSLivingston_III]

I know this thread got off topic and became a distance thread, but on this topic I have found the last couple of pages very enlightening and surprising. The calls for distance markings removal are very interesting, but absolutely impractical. Mr. Paul's description of the USGA's response I am sure is nuts on, plus golf is too much of an industry now. To undo anything that's perceived to make the game easier. bring in more players, and creates more corporate profit is not going to be viewed well.
I think they have seen the light with things like the iPods, that tech toys will help bring in the kids.

[Rob Rigg]

Not even Top 25? Aww shucks. Well, the Huckster has given it his best! 

Paul, indeed, don't think anything will even touch the Cheater Line . . .

[Tom Huckaby]

Yes I did give this the old college try, but if we're gonna really reach the depths of GCA infamy (which is what I consider these huge threads), we need one man and one man only to return:

MELVYN.

If he comes back firing, we can get this to at least 15 pages.

But good to read you in here again, Ralph.  Of course you're right and this whole removal of markings thing is a pipe dream.

But let's explore this then.  So it can't be done.  The golf world is what it is.  In light of this - and how distance information is EVERYWHERE on such courses... even if one does believe that a world without distance marking is a better world, a more fun way to play... what to do going forward? 

My feeling has always been - this exploration down the road of the possibilities of removing distance markings nothwithstanding - that in this real today world, I see no harm in using electronic distance aids - they just make what's available anyway easier to get, and in effect speed up play as those who must have it don't have to search for it.

I have never bought the "just ignore distance info" idea - to me it's impossible on damn near all courses I play.

Melvyn has tended to greatly take me to task for this.  What say you?  Can a hickory golf champion like yourself see the realities of today's world as it plays out for most golfers (even as you shun such in terms of equipment)?

And a separate question, if you would be so kind - I've never made it to a hickory golf event - if you do such on a marked golf course, do you all try to ignore distance markings, or do you go with the flow?  Or do you somehow always find unmarked courses?

Not trying to nail you or anything - remember I am an inactive member of the Society - I am genuinely curious how far a group like this takes it.

Tom H.

[RSLivingston_III]

Tom,
I have been stuck using yardage graffiti because it is unavoidable, at least in the US. It is too ingrained in me to look and use it. I purchased one of the first Bushnell's back a little more than a decade ago, to help in analyzing and documenting the various hickory clubs. I approached it the same as anyone else here would, trying to create a direct comparison to an equivalent contemporary club. It took expressions of disappointment from British Golf Collector members while playing over there, to get me to to play by feel/eyeballing it. So it took a little kick in the butt to see the error of my ways and I truly thank them for it.
I don't expect anyone else to play this way. I just want to do my part to keep it alive so it doesn't get lost to history. Playing the entire game by feel gave me insights to the clubs that, if I had continued in a modern mechanical fashion, I would never have experienced.  Unfortunately for others to duplicate what I have found will take a serious time commitment and a wordy description will not get it across.

With regards to the Society of Hickory Golfers, they have no real authority yet. Guidelines on play are just recommendations that sponsers of events can follow or not. The "rule" that would be of interest here is that they decided that the current year USGA rules should be followed, for early 20th century events. There is, as expected, a waiver on the equipment in that anything that was used, even clubs that became ruled illegal, can be played with. It was decided it would be too difficult to have people play by rules from the era because; as quickly as the rules were changing between 1898 and 1931 we would have to decide on one particular year. Plus, people typically don't know the current years rules so expecting them to sit and learn a new set of rules would be almost impossible. The 19th century events are different in that there are only a couple of events for that era and the gentlemen running them created a set of rules based on a combination of rules from the existing clubs, and it is short and easily remembered.

Hope this clarifies things.

[Tom Huckaby]

Ralph:

Many thanks.  We're getting there.... but excuse my density, I remain confused about a few things:

1.  So you TRY to play sans distance information these days - I get that and it makes great sense.  My question is:  on the normal US course with its distance graffii, do you manage to succeed in ignoring it?  Or do you play courses that are either unmarked or sparsely so, shunning the others?

2.  The whole idea of trying to play this way, well...I get it, believe me I do.  I have tried it from time to time and my fun experience with it is the backbone of my thoughts the last few pages of this thread.  But yes, it is very difficult to describe and even more so to convince others to follow.  So no sweat there.

3.  So at Society events, they use distance, range finders, etc. - that is follow the current rules?  Of course that makes logistical sense and is what I would expect.  I just wondered if they took it so far to try to eliminate such things... as if such were possible.

TH

[RSLivingston_III]

Try is the best way to describe it. Most times I will have a club in my hands to hit before I reach the ball and it will be usually be stronger than needed for a full swing. Unless I have to have a higher trajectory to stop the ball, I would try to "feel" the shot with that more powerful club.

The majority of people participating in the hickory events are very much part timers. These people think it is too hard and feel they need the help.
A dozen plus years ago when I went full time hickory I became the first to do so. There are a number of others that have followed but I have no clue how many. Some percentage of this group will play a more traditional game, but they are still playing on courses littered with distance graffiti. It is hard to ignore those markings especially while playing a competition and you realize you don't want to give up any advantages.

[Tom Huckaby]

Try is the best way to describe it. Most times I will have a club in my hands to hit before I reach the ball and it will be usually be stronger than needed for a full swing. Unless I have to have a higher trajectory to stop the ball, I would try to "feel" the shot with that more powerful club.

The majority of people participating in the hickory events are very much part timers. These people think it is too hard and feel they need the help.
A dozen plus years ago when I went full time hickory I became the first to do so. There are a number of others that have followed but I have no clue how many. Some percentage of this group will play a more traditional game, but they are still playing on courses littered with distance graffiti. It is hard to ignore those markings especially while playing a competition and you realize you don't want to give up any advantages.

Ralph:  gotcha - makes perfect sense, thanks.
I also may quote your last line there the next time someone says "just ignore the distance information."  I'd say it goes beyond HARD....