[RSLivingston_III]

I assume a sonocaddie is a distance device?
There weren't any "target" courses like what you are describing. That isn't an aspect of 19th century game. Again another example of impressing modern concepts on golf 100+ years ago.
These guys played on courses they were familiar with. It might be best described as home-home matches. There weren't that many courses then (1830-1880). And the matches typically were played across multiple courses, not on a single course.

[Jim_Kennedy]

Ralph,
It's easy to see that in 19th century golf it wasn't as necessary to know that the carry over a greenside bunker was 195 yards, how many folks were making that shot?, and even if they could it would be with such a long club that there'd be no stopping the ball on the green.  It's also understandable that when more than a few of your shots in a given round are played to drop early and bounce onto the green, that there is less of a need to know precisely how far you are from the flag....and think of how useless yardages become when playing on the windy links. Even today you may as well keep the yardage book tucked away or the radar gun neatly stored in its case when playing in any kind of strong wind, on any course.

On the other hand, I don't believe that OT and his contemporaries didn't have a good idea of distance, especially when it came to the par 3 holes,     where club choice would have been as standard then as it is now, given a placid environment.

I think it's ridiculous to disdain, as Melvyn does, one form of play over another. Neither is superior and both show the adaptability of the game.
You can forgo all modern conveniences and have a great time on foot, or have just as much fun cartballin' it with your big headed driver and your bubble headed buddies.

[RSLivingston_III]

Ralph,
It's easy to see that in 19th century golf it wasn't as necessary to know that the carry over a greenside bunker was 195 yards, how many folks were making that shot?, and even if they could it would be with such a long club that there'd be no stopping the ball on the green.  It's also understandable that when more than a few of your shots in a given round are played to drop early and bounce onto the green, that there is less of a need to know precisely how far you are from the flag....and think of how useless yardages become when playing on the windy links. Even today you may as well keep the yardage book tucked away or the radar gun neatly stored in its case when playing in any kind of strong wind, on any course.

On the other hand, I don't believe that OT and his contemporaries didn't have a good idea of distance, especially when it came to the par 3 holes,     where club choice would have been as standard then as it is now, given a placid environment.

I think it's ridiculous to disdain, as Melvyn does, one form of play over another. Neither is superior and both show the adaptability of the game.
You can forgo all modern conveniences and have a great time on foot, or have just as much fun cartballin' it with your big headed driver and your bubble headed buddies.

Of course they knew the distances, these were their courses. If your state only had 5-6 courses and you played weekly matches over them, don't you think you would come to know them fairly well?

The problem is that all these new toys are wiping out the option to play the traditional game. You have forecaadiies yelling you the yardage when you tell them you don't want it, I had to threaten whacking one with a Mashie Niblick if he didn't shut up.  Cart only courses, no walking and carrying. Great old courses getting mutilated beyond recognition because of the drivers developed this past decade, and all for the sake of ego.
Yes, the genii is probably out of the bottle.
I saw it coming over a decade ago and my answer was to play pre-1930 clubs full time.
Needless to say I have a very different perspective on the modern game and spend much time studying the early game.

[Melvyn Morrow]

This thread reminds me of the history story my old teacher told me, it describes information on a pending attack on some large harbour out in the middle of the sea. The information was ignored and many people died. I wonder if those guys back then called the guys who passed on the information names?

Thank God this is only Golf we are talking about.

But of course you know better, don’t invite me to the book burning parties.

Melvyn


PS Bob, I don’t expect thanks for posting a comment, but I do expect a courtesy nod when I e-mail pages of information. But then a so called gentleman would know that, regrettable your last thread proves you certainly are not one.   

[TEPaul]

Speaking of how golfers deal with yardage, here's a trivia question for you:

Who was the last man to win on tour (and when) who did not rely on yardage? He just eyeballed everything. There's actually a young player on tour who they say doesn't use yardage. He won the US Amateur a few years ago.

[Sam Morrow]

Speaking of how golfers deal with yardage, here's a trivia question for you:

Who was the last man to win on tour (and when) who did not rely on yardage? He just eyeballed everything. There's actually a young player on tour who they say doesn't use yardage. He won the US Amateur a few years ago.

 I think Ryan Moore doesn't use yardages.

[TEPaul]

That's right Sam. That's the guy. Do you know the last guy to win on tour who didn't use yardage?

[Sam Morrow]

That's right Sam. That's the guy. Do you know the last guy to win on tour who didn't use yardage?

I don't know that, can we have a year?

[TEPaul]

Sam:

Definitely. Take a couple if you need to.

By the way, Sam, are you related to Melvyn Morrow?

[Sam Morrow]

What year was the last winner not using yardages?

[Craig Sweet]

Ralph...of course Tom Morris wanted to get the ball in the hole...and I think it's safe to say before every shot he gauged in his head how far away that hole was, and how he would have to hit the shot to get it closer to the hole...whether he paced the distance, looked at a near by landmark, or knew where he was on the course from experience...he made a calculation before his shot...

How is that any different than pulling out the range finder or looking at a sprinkler head?

[TEPaul]

That's a BIG hint Sam---REALLY BIG!

It was 1972.

[Sam Morrow]

That's a BIG hint Sam---REALLY BIG!

It was 1972.

Bert Yancey?

[Craig Sweet]

Traditionalist?   Good God...look, if I played at a course that required me to take a fore caddy and I told him to STFU and he continued to yell out yardage etc. I'd either fire him on the spot...play my next round elsewhere, demand a new FC....or something...but I wouldn't use that example of what's wrong with the modern game....

The other thing...if I was going to be a traditionalist I would expect certain clashes at the intersection of old and new...

However...when I play there are all sorts of "aids" I could utilize...pin sheets, sprinkler heads with yardage, color coded flags on the pins, etc....but I choose not to use them....these "modern" intrusions don't bother me...they don't enter into my thought process when I'm playing the hole.

[TEPaul]

"How is that any different than pulling out the range finder or looking at a sprinkler head?"

Craig:

The difference is they probably did it by using their eyes and brain to calculate the distance of the shot rather than finding that distance on a sprinkler head or via a mechanical (what the Rules call "artifical") device.

Obviously what the two bodies that administer to the Rules of Golf here have done is separate out distance "information" that is generated in a particular way (with an artifical device) that was once banned so that it no longer is. Now what's left in the ban on artifical devices in the context of distance is anything that could actually artificially assist a golfer in actually making a stroke.

As you know it is still banned in the Rules for artifical devices to calculate anything OTHER than distance.

I also believe I now understand why the former ban on distance measuring devices was lifted when it was.

[Craig Sweet]

TPaul...agreed...and I bet 99% of golfers, regardless of whether they use a range finder or not, still use their brains and eyes....my experience with golfer using range finders is they have calculated the distance as they approach their ball and the range finder or sprinkler head is a confirmation of what they already decided.

[TEPaul]

Craig:

In considering your answer would it be appropriate to say that someone who uses a fork to eat is eating with his hands? 

Do you realize, Craig, that just before or just during the teens Albert Einenstein essentially changed the world and that at first he did it all via his Special Theory of Relativity entirely in his head?

[Craig Sweet]

TPaul...I think some would argue the immediate acceptance of Einstein's Theory of Relativity..and whether it was his work, or the work of another physicist  (perhaps Max Planck?) that "changed" the world.

[Jim_Kennedy]

This thread reminds me of the history story my old teacher told me, it describes information on a pending attack on some large harbour out in the middle of the sea. The information was ignored and many people died. I wonder if those guys back then called the guys who passed on the information names?
Thank God this is only Golf we are talking about. -Melvyn

You ought to be happy that someone ignored that info or you'd be typing your reply while sitting around in your lederhausen and nibbling on some schnitzel 'n chips. 

But of course you know better, don’t invite me to the book burning parties.
-Melvyn

If it wasn't for golf in the US you probably wouldn't even know any of the 12 guys who comprised the whole field for your Open Championship this year.

Get real.

[Sam Morrow]

Sam:

Definitely. Take a couple if you need to.

By the way, Sam, are you related to Melvyn Morrow?

No relation, I'm from Texas and thank God for carts.

[TEPaul]

Sorry Sam, but I just did an Ancestry.com and a ship passenger manifest dot.com search on you and your Texas family. You sure as shootin' are related to Melvyn. His grandfather's cousin once removed married your grandmother.

You've got some explaining to do to Melvyn, Scotland, golf, golf architecture and golf maintenance and the memory of Old Tom. Carts are a good place for you to begin the explaining Cowboy. Cuz iffin' you don't then that old adage that you can never go home again will turn out to be true!

[Melvyn Morrow]

So Jim

You are the Golf Professional at The Hotchkiss School.  I trust you are keeping up the standards of your school and are a first class ambassador for them. So I hope you have collated all our threads and presented them to your Governors showing how you represent them in public

Your vile comments are not going to reflect on me but on you and I trust that you may want to reconsider what you say in public when attaching their web details.

You are indeed an ambassador for your school and country, others can judge how good you really are.

You are lucky that I am not vindictive and believe you have a right to voice your opinion no matter how base it is. You disrespect your country, school and this site.

You don’t agree then fine, but keep taking it further is a reflection on you.

Melvyn

[Jim_Kennedy]

Melvyn,
 
Your examination of golf in America is totally flawed.

Good day

[Melvyn Morrow]

Jim

I will again say I do not have a problem with the game in America. Of course I am not keen on Carts etc, etc but that is just my opinion, I do not know how many times I have to keep repeating myself.  This site does not make the rules its just a debating forum and hopefully a source to learn the history of the game – well that my opinion.

If I believe in free speech then I must also believe in the rights of playing the game the way you want.

But and it is a BIG BUT I don’t agree that it is good for the game, yet that is my right to voice that belief as it is your and the rest to counter.

As for information I pass on via posting on this site I do not do it to create an argument but to convey how it was explained to me.

By all means disagree, but I have records and copies of many articles that do not mention distance as being important as we know treat it. Everywhere you look someone is fiddling with distance info, yet again I say it is not actually required – many feel that they can’t play good golf without it – that is just plain daft.

I hope this cools the problem and allows all parties time to calm down.

I know some will not withdraw their comments but that’s their choice.

Melvyn 

[C. Squier]

Craig:

In considering your answer would it be appropriate to say that someone who uses a fork to eat is eating with his hands? 

Do you realize, Craig, that just before or just during the teens Albert Einenstein essentially changed the world and that at first he did it all via his Special Theory of Relativity entirely in his head?

Is the 19th century scientist any more virtuous than the 21st century scientist who solves problems with the aid of a computer?  Does the 21st century scientist love the science any less because they are able to apply it easier?

The science isn't about the equation or math.  It's about the application of the math. 

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