Was Old Tom the Standard Bearer for Range-Finders?

[Jim_Kennedy]

Tom,
Now you sound like my wife.   

If you played here, you'd have a hard time finding the three metal yardage discs in the fairways of our 4s and 5s, and even if you did you'd still have to gauge how to hit a shot when the green is 20' above your feet, your right foot is 6" higher than your left, your ball is 3" below your feet, resting on a slightly bare lie, and the wind is swirling around in the treetops, but the flag-on-a-stick is limp..........I'll help, you're 156 out. 

I watch thousands of golfers per season trying to negotiate their way up our par 5 ninth hole, including players with extreme course knowledge and ones who are first-timers. Based on that sampling I would answer no, I am not unhappy with the status of today's equipment.

I prefer a set of rules that mainly focuses on creating equitable protocols for resolving disputes while remaining broadminded in its approach, i.e.,  only setting limits on the maximum amount of technology a player can use, not on how little of it he chooses to use.
   
Seeing as how the vast majority of golf is played outside of the realm of organized competition, that approach contains something in it for everyone and it's more democratic than yours. 

[Tom Huckaby]

Jim, I am going to take that as both a rebuke and a compliment.

 

You make great points.  Hey, my plan has more holes than swiss cheese.  However... when one has a plan like that, one tends to focus on the end result and leave the holes to others.

And I still see an end result of courses sans distance markings being more fun to play.

Most find me insane.  Melvyn if he ever returns will find me schizophrenic as I have previously argued so strenuously against such a thing.  But his issue was he didn't LISTEN... didn't realize I was always in favor of such a world, just unclear as to how to make it happen.  Exploring this way to make it happen has been interesting, anyway.

TH

[TEPaul]

It is interesting for me to see you guys arguing over the use of any kind of distance information, and there are some interesting points being made but my suggestion is don't carrying on those discussions with the suggestion or the expectation that the Rules of Golf (USGA or R&A) are going to actually do something about it within the Rules of Golf such as roll back or ban the collection processes of distance information. That is not going to happen---not ever.

So, if you guys want to play that way the best way to go about it is the old fashioned way of just getting everyone you're playing with or against to agree to it before you all tee off! 

[Tom Huckaby]

Tom Paul, you are such a freakin' killjoy.  We allow you to go on for pages and pages and pages on arcane historical trivia... and you have the gall to chide us for discussing something that will never really happen? 

And your suggestion sucks too.  We need an unmarked course to make it even doable.  There just pain aren't many around.

Although... I do know of a few... next time I get to one, hell yes I am gonna try to play this way.

 

[Anthony Gray]

It is interesting for me to see you guys arguing over the use of any kind of distance information, and there are some interesting points being made but my suggestion is don't carrying on those discussions with the suggestion or the expectation that the Rules of Golf (USGA or R&A) are going to actually do something about it within the Rules of Golf such as roll back or ban the collection processes of distance information. That is not going to happen---not ever.

So, if you guys want to play that way the best way to go about it is the old fashioned way of just getting everyone you're playing with or against to agree to it before you all tee off! 

  Mot,

  Good point...but could four people actually play 18 holes without one person not resisting the urge to ppek at a sprinkler head. My money says at least one person would peek either out  of habit or curiosity.

  Anthony

[Tom Huckaby]

It is interesting for me to see you guys arguing over the use of any kind of distance information, and there are some interesting points being made but my suggestion is don't carrying on those discussions with the suggestion or the expectation that the Rules of Golf (USGA or R&A) are going to actually do something about it within the Rules of Golf such as roll back or ban the collection processes of distance information. That is not going to happen---not ever.

So, if you guys want to play that way the best way to go about it is the old fashioned way of just getting everyone you're playing with or against to agree to it before you all tee off! 

  Mot,

  Good point...but could four people actually play 18 holes without one person not resisting the urge to ppek at a sprinkler head. My money says at least one person would peek either out  of habit or curiosity.

  Anthony

Anthony - my assumption all along has been that it would be so difficult to do as to be tantamount to impossible. Thus the "just ignore the distance info" argument is meaningless to me.

TH

[Mike Benham]

 I DO NOT BELIEVE IN ARTIFICAL HELP!

If I may, what business are you in?  And does this mantra follow into your everyday life?

[Mike Benham]

a) no notes or yardage guides are allowed on the course during a stipulated round; so it doesn't matter if you created it yourself or purchased something... either way you'd have to rely on memory.

I assume you would have to eliminate scorecards as we know them (except the advertisements can stay) ...

No yardage for each hole ...

And in theory, no "PAR" for each hole ...

[Tom Huckaby]

Mike:  no, scorecards are fine.  Allow one distance for each tee.  Give par also.  None of that hurts my concepts... and it keeps people from overly freaking out, particularly in the short term.

TH

[Anthony Gray]

  All,

  This past weekend playing the home course I had a familiar shot. I did not know the distance but I knew the shot. If asked I would have guessed 120. It is an uphill shot will a severe sloping green back to front. It is a MUST to be under the pin. As I do every week I pulled out the 7-iron to punch. The guy with the laser shouts 132. 132? "I need to hit this a little harder than planned". Result......... Passed the hole...no way to stop the ball....3-putt.....THANKS for the yardage info!!

  Anthony

 

[Jim_Kennedy]

Sean,
First, I couldn't do that, my name isn't Usain Bolt, but I did stay in a Holiday Inn Express last night, and I checked in right after I 'shot' the course on which you I were having our big match on the 'morrow.  

Second, I don't see any appreciable difference therefore I don't think it has merit. We differ, and if we ever meet to play a game I can assure you that I won't use one, and I rarely ever seek out yardage markers in fairways.
Of course, as the stakes go up I reserve the right to change my approach.

I agree quite a bit with your views on the architectural aspects, and I know it's one you have consistently held (not like that waffler Huckaby ).
But, 'fixing' it is nearly impossible because just knowing the yardage isn't the issue, it's the equipment we use that is the real progenitor of the problem.
That's one reason that I don't mind a well placed tree or two on a course,  find one in your path and you think 'fashion' instead of 'distance'.

 

[Tom Huckaby]

Jim:

I prefer the term "one who is willing to learn, doesn't assume he has all the answers, and is open to other ideas" to "waffler."

But you can call me whatever you want - just don't call me late for dinner.

 

You also never really answered my oh so thoughtful questions about the equipment side of this.  But never mind.  I'd hate to see you waffle.

 

[Mike Benham]

Mike:  no, scorecards are fine.  Allow one distance for each tee.  Give par also.  None of that hurts my concepts... and it keeps people from overly freaking out, particularly in the short term.

TH

Seems silly that if you are going to change the rules, why only change them half-way ...

[Mike Benham]

The guy with the laser shouts 132. 132? "I need to hit this a little harder than planned".
 

How do you know he was telling the truth?

[Tom Huckaby]

Mike:

Some concessions do need to be made to modern realities.

My personal hope would be that over time, we can even get to a reality where scorecard distances are unnecessary.  But as a means to make this more palatable initially, I'd say it's wise to give the ONE distance, to allow for planning, and some familiarity with a game most have played all their lives.

But of course I haven't thought this through completely.  Perhaps just giving a par figure would achieve the same result.

TH

[Brent Hutto]

Let me add this, of all the good players I know (and FWIW I define "good player" as someone who can shoot around par from the back tees with something meaningful at stake...or better) there is exactly one who does not play to yardages. I've not asked him but I know how he would answer if asked "Does the ubiquitous yardage information on most courses distract or bother you?" and his answer would be to laugh it off as a silly question.

But I have asked him about playing from numbers and he says having a distance in his head has no more bearing on how he plays a shot than his shoe size does. Totally a feel player although even he admitted to occasionally looking around to see if he's too far out to carry a water hazard from 200+ yards. Yet when he's playing with students or team partners it causes him no grief whatsoever to be standing there while they shoot rangefinders or discuss numbers or consult a yardage book.

Bringing me full circle to "just play your game and let me play mine". But I will stipulate that there are few people out there whose mind works better absent any numbers. It's just nothing to do with "purism" or "how the game should be played" but rather a simple contingency of how a few people are wired.

[Tom Huckaby]

Let me add this, of all the good players I know (and FWIW I define "good player" as someone who can shoot around par from the back tees with something meaningful at stake...or better) there is exactly one who does not play to yardages. I've not asked him but I know how he would answer if asked "Does the ubiquitous yardage information on most courses distract or bother you?" and his answer would be to laugh it off as a silly question.

But I have asked him about playing from numbers and he says having a distance in his head has no more bearing on how he plays a shot than his shoe size does. Totally a feel player although even he admitted to occasionally looking around to see if he's too far out to carry a water hazard from 200+ yards. Yet when he's playing with students or team partners it causes him no grief whatsoever to be standing there while they shoot rangefinders or discuss numbers or consult a yardage book.

Bringing me full circle to "just play your game and let me play mine". But I will stipulate that there are few people out there whose mind works better absent any numbers. It's just nothing to do with "purism" or "how the game should be played" but rather a simple contingency of how a few people are wired.

OK Brent, that is all stipulated.

I'm actually surprised this ONE guy even exists.

 

And note also - thought I made this clear before, but if not it bears repeating - my reasons for supporting this have little do to with purism or how the game should be played either - it's more to do, for me, with in what manner the game would be more fun... and what would be better for the game.

TH

[Anthony Gray]

  I wonder if asked to write down the distance of every hole on our home courses, how close would we get. I have no idea how long each hole is on the course I play every week. I do not need to know to play it the way it needs to be played.

  Anthony

 

[Jim_Kennedy]

But as a means to make this more palatable initially, I'd say it's wise to give the ONE distance......Huck

You forget Mr. Huckaby that, as Rich pointed out earlier, knowing that ONE yardage was part of the slippier slope that started this whole mess in the first place.  

[Tom Huckaby]

But as a means to make this more palatable initially, I'd say it's wise to give the ONE distance......Huck

You forget Mr. Huckaby that, as Rich pointed out earlier, knowing that ONE yardage was part of the slippier slope that started this whole mess in the first place.  

I live by Rich's teachings, but I did forget that.  And it is a great point.  I also appreciate the respect.  Heck yeah I am Mr. Huckaby if you are so inclined.   

So OK, no distance on cards either.  Force people to go cold turkey.  But I would leave a par figure, if only to aid strategic planning, and again for lessening the initial freakout.  But after some time even that goes away too.

TH

[Anthony Gray]

   How about this........ We all want uor performance enhanced.....After all we live in a culture of performance enhancement.....So golf yet again immitates life........a longer driver....a longer ball.....more accurate distance information.......this will never go away from life or from golf.....the girl wants to be prettier.....the golfer wants to be better......life.life.life.golf.golf.golf.....

  Anthony

 

  No comments on this idea. This is some of my best work to date. Agree or Disagree?

  ANthony

[Joe Hancock]

   How about this........ We all want uor performance enhanced.....After all we live in a culture of performance enhancement.....So golf yet again immitates life........a longer driver....a longer ball.....more accurate distance information.......this will never go away from life or from golf.....the girl wants to be prettier.....the golfer wants to be better......life.life.life.golf.golf.golf.....

  Anthony

 

  No comments on this idea. This is some of my best work to date. Agree or Disagree?

  ANthony

Anthony,

Quite apropos, yet, as I sit here looking down....no reaction whatsoever.

Sorry....

Joe

[TEPaul]

"No comments on this idea. This is some of my best work to date. Agree or Disagree?"


AH-HAH! No comment you say---just an Agree or Disagree?! No conceivable way, young Master Gray. Let's just take your remark below:


"So golf yet again immitates life"


Does it indeed?? How do you know life doesn't imitate golf? You don't know do you? I didn't think so!!! Consequently I'd like a ten page thesis that does a complete "Compare and Contrast" with the question-----Does golf imitate Life or does life imitate Golf?

And I'd like it on my desk first thing tomorrow morning!

And you better be taking into consideration the clever usage of the capital L and G or not or your thesis will begin at a C- and you will receive at least 14 demerits!

[TEPaul]

I see young Hancock is sitting in the back of the room looking out the window and day-dreaming again.


And what about me? What am I going to do? I'll tell you what I plan to do. There is apparently some snow coming to Pennsylvania and I plan to sleep right next to an open window just as Old Tom used to do when it snowed at TOC. He would wake up in the morning with snow on his face, and I'm planning the same thing. If that doesn't give me some real Old Tom Morris inspiration I figure nothing will. Now where in the hell did I put my fancy new Hammecker, Schlemer mechanical hand-held weather forecaster?

[JMEvensky]

But as a means to make this more palatable initially, I'd say it's wise to give the ONE distance......Huck

You forget Mr. Huckaby that, as Rich pointed out earlier, knowing that ONE yardage was part of the slippier slope that started this whole mess in the first place.  

I live by Rich's teachings, but I did forget that.  And it is a great point.  I also appreciate the respect.  Heck yeah I am Mr. Huckaby if you are so inclined.   

So OK, no distance on cards either.  Force people to go cold turkey.  But I would leave a par figure, if only to aid strategic planning, and again for lessening the initial freakout.  But after some time even that goes away too.

TH

TH,I'll gladly fight on your side in any Muccian battle(especially regarding preferred tee markers),but this one is pretty quixotic,even for someone as old-school as I am.

While everyone is,to some extent,a "feel" player,nowadays the entire universe of golf is designed to know a specific yardage.The "art" of hitting a golf ball 125 yards with 5 different irons depending on conditions is long since gone.

Anyone who's learned to play in the last ~20 years has always known sprinkler heads that are marked(frequently front/center/back).Entire sets of irons are bent to ensure little/no gaps.Wedges are bought in lofts to eliminate as many half shots as possible.Everything is geared to hitting a specific club a specific yardage.Which,of course,makes knowing the yardage vital.And these are teenagers.It's only going to get worse.

Like probably most people my age,I was taught to think in terms of 10 yard strips like on a football field.I still do it and it still works-in spite of having access to sprinkler heads and Bushnells being common in my group.

I admire your argument for golf being more fun without yardages,but I don't see it happening anytime soon.

If,however,you want to institute some rule denying range finders to those who can't hit 3 PW's out of 100 within 20 yards of the measured distance,then I'm with you.