[John Kirk]

Last fall I had the opportunity to play one of the top ranked courses built in the last 10-15 years.  For the purpose of this discussion, I decided not to say which one, but some of you will figure it out.  It's located on a beautiful piece of golf property, though the "look" is quite homogenous throughout.  A lovely golf club.

It's designed by a top notch architect, who apparently mounted the Sand Pro himself to do the finish grading on all eighteen greens.  The architect would review each green with the superintendent, making sure his creations were maintainable.

The greens are extremely complex, with all sorts of ridges, mounds, false fronts, and other little features.  I played one round of golf during my visit.  I shot 81 or 82, with maybe 37 or 38 putts.

I wasn't putting that well, but I also kept getting fooled on reading the putts, especially on short putts.  I consider getting fooled on a putt as a badge of honor;  I'm pretty decent at reading greens, and generally admire the green that causes a misread.  In this case, however, I misread so many that it started getting old.  The day ended on the 490 yard final hole, where I went driver, 3-wood, brilliant 35 yard bunker shot, misread 3.5 footer.

The day of golf was most noteworthy for all the misread putts.


Do you admire the occasional misread?

Does it irritate you to misread several in a round?

Do you feel that the traits I am describing in this golf course constitute good architecture?

[Adam Clayman]

John, It all depends on why you mis-read them. On many of the flatter modern greens there is no rhyme or reason why a putt breaks one way or the other and can be impossible to read. Having to figure out what the shaper was thinking makes it all a stupid guessing game.

I'm not a fan of having no clues about which way a putt will want to go. Those clues don't even have to be on the green, they can be revealed throughput the hole by sensing which way the natural terrain flows. Ala, one of the middle holes at Eastmorland.(6?)

I would use rustic canyon as an example where there's plenty of clues what each putt will do, you just have to be aware enough to see it. Since it's in a valley, that can be confusing, but not impossible.

[Joe Hancock]

I can enjoy my own occasional mis-read. It's when I'm dropping $100 on a caddy that gives me multiple mis-reads that bothers me.

Joe

[Joe Bausch]

John, it sounds like you might not want to play Pete Dye Golf Club.   

At the GCA gathering there this past summer, I've never had a more difficult day reading greens.  I think it was b/c of the rather severe surroundings that threw off my usually good instincts at reading slopes.

[Bart Bradley]

John:

What kind of grass were the greens?  Was it grain that caused the misreads or slope?

Bart

[John Kirk]

Colonial (or browntop) bentgrass.

Generally, misreads are more often experienced on courses built on the side of the hill, where one loses a sense of level ground.  In this case, the course is hilly but without a prevailing tilt to the land.  I think I misread lost of putts because the greens were so complicated.

[Jim_Kennedy]

John,

I like to be hornswaggled at times, it keeps you on your toes. Two instances really stand out for me, one was a continual under reading of the break, the other was a few misreads of the way the green broke. Brrrrrr!

'Course these were on putts of some length, I didn't know it was possible to misread a 3.5' putt. 

[Joe Bausch]

A couple of summers ago I played the John Daly Thundering Waters course up near Niagara Falls.  I don't remember which hole I was on, but I had a putt that I was convinced had to go left b/c of the lay of the land and the creek running nearby.  That darn putt went dead right and I really could not believe it.  But as I walked off the green to the non-creek side, I noticed some drainage areas and grates.  I think the architect was deliberately attempting to confuse the golfer as it sure seemed to me it would have been much simpler to use the general terrain of the land to take away rain water and not tilt the green the other way (and presumably run the water back underneath the green to the creek).

[Tom_Doak]

Joe:

In many cases the phenomenon you just described is a deliberate (perhaps even legislated) attempt to keep runoff water from the green from flowing directly into the creek, to minimize the possibility of pesticide or nitrates getting into the creek after an application.

I am sure Mr. Daly is on top of those issues.

[Joe Bausch]

Joe:

In many cases the phenomenon you just described is a deliberate (perhaps even legislated) attempt to keep runoff water from the green from flowing directly into the creek, to minimize the possibility of pesticide or nitrates getting into the creek after an application.

I am sure Mr. Daly is on top of those issues.

Ahhh, sometimes the obvious isn't so to me!

But this water would have to end up somewhere eventually, right?  I guess into a sewer drain?

[Bart Bradley]

John:

This is a very interesting topic and one that is hard to discuss without seeing examples, in person.  It is, given our self centered nature, easy to think that you were just not getting it...but, I doubt that is true.  Do you think repeated play would allow you to "see" the line or would you just have to learn from experience.  My favorite set of greens was very confusing to me for the first 2 or 3 times around but now, I can actually see the breaks (although first time visitors think I am crazy --about the green contours, that is).

I admit that for a one- time play, it doesn't sound like your experience was a lot of fun.

Bart

[Eric Smith]

John:

Your experience sounds very similar to my own recently; happened twice actually this past year.  I consider putting to be the strongest part of my game, yet I was dumbfounded with the greens at Beechtree during my only play this past October, as well as Olde Farm this past May.  I've mentioned on here before that I felt both of these courses had similar type greens, very nuanced in a lot of places.  Practically every read I made, except for the obvious ones, was incorrect.  I know this is the incorrect analogy, but it was almost like I was dyslexic looking at those breaks!  Frustrating for sure, but the work is genius in my mind.

Two of the best courses, including the greens, I've ever had the pleasure to play.

I chalk it up to "I'm not worthy!"

Next time I get an opportunity to play OF, I'm just going to go opposite on all my reads. 

Can't at Beechtree unfortunately

[John Kirk]

John:

Do you think repeated play would allow you to "see" the line or would you just have to learn from experience.  My favorite set of greens was very confusing to me for the first 2 or 3 times around but now, I can actually see the breaks (although first time visitors think I am crazy --about the green contours, that is).

I admit that for a one- time play, it doesn't sound like your experience was a lot of fun.

Bart

This is the heart of the quandary.  I believe that complex greens add to the member's overall enjoyment of his home course.  Learning the course is not a trivial matter.  He has a "home course" advantage over his guests.  The course continues to spark interest by offering different challenges each round.

In this case, I was a bit overwhelmed by my inability to see what I was doing.  It is, however, a very good golf course, one that probably returns ratings between 6 and 9 from Golfweek raters.

[Peter Ferlicca]

John,

Might I suggest getting down a little lower to see the green, I know it might sound stupid but good old camilo villegas does drain a lot of long putts.  If I am playing a course where I am misreading the greens all day, I am assuming I am just stroking it real bad, which in turn lowers your confidence on reading the greens.

[cary lichtenstein]

I have always been a good reader of greens, but there are a few that come to mind that I didn't enjoy, couldn't read and would rather not play again.

Red Sky Ranch (Weiskopf) is one

[Adam Clayman]

Cary, Reading any putt on the Weiskopf course at Red Sky ranch is impossible.

[Pete_Pittock]

Don't know which is worse, verde dyslexia,  or the inability to putt along the intended line.

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