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Kyle Harris

Bucks County Country Club (William Gordon)
« on: February 11, 2009, 11:56:21 PM »
I'll post a longer response tomorrow but I wanted to get a separate thread up from the Partial Renovation thread so as not to threadjack.

Here it is Mike, Bob, Eric and Kyle, which is me.

Steve_ Shaffer

  • Karma: +0/-0
Re: Bucks County Country Club (William Gordon)
« Reply #1 on: February 12, 2009, 12:01:15 AM »
Who is this Broadbelt who did the new holes at BCCC? Does he work for Toll Bros?

I'll answer my own question:

http://www.philly.com/philly/sports/golf/course_guide/Downingtown_Country_Club.html?text=med&c=y

The new holes are totally out of character with Gordon's work.


« Last Edit: February 12, 2009, 12:05:20 AM by Steve_ Shaffer »
"Some of us worship in churches, some in synagogues, some on golf courses ... "  Adlai Stevenson
Hyman Roth to Michael Corleone: "We're bigger than US Steel."
Ben Hogan “The most important shot in golf is the next one”

Kyle Harris

Re: Bucks County Country Club (William Gordon)
« Reply #2 on: February 12, 2009, 12:15:53 AM »
Who is this Broadbelt who did the new holes at BCCC? Does he work for Toll Bros?

I'll answer my own question:

http://www.philly.com/philly/sports/golf/course_guide/Downingtown_Country_Club.html?text=med&c=y

The new holes are totally out of character with Gordon's work.




Irony. His attitude about walking in the article is NOT reflected in his design at Bucks as those holes are some of the most unwalkable in the area.

As Mike alluded to in the other thread, two of the holes are decent enough to stand with the rest of the course. The 13th is a longer par 3 across a valley to a wild green. I think the green is over the top, but it's definitely daring. For all the movement, there are really only 3 or 4 hole locations.

The hole after is the most sporting. A sharp dogleg right across the same valley from the hole before to a wide green that has one of the few legitimate skyline views of a flag stick in the area.

Before this stretch is a 400 yard par 4 through a narrow corridor. One thing about a 60 yard wide corridor with OB/Houses right and impenetrable lateral hazard woods left is you do not want to make a fairway that is nearly unattainable to anything but a lucky bounce. However, the fairway is a double tiered monster that effectively cuts the width of the hole in half. The play is up the right side to the higher tier, which brings bunkers and the OB into play, but really the reward is hardly work the risk so the player just really pounds one down the middle and hopes for the ball to stay right. Hit the slope in the fairway and it's scuttling left.

After the good stretch is a bear of a par 4 at 440 that demands a player pipe a drive down the middle and then hit an isolated green with a mid iron. While it's not a bad hole, per se, it offers little decision making and has nothing in the way of character of the handful of similar tests on the Gordon holes.

In fact, knowing Mike's tastes, I'm a bit surprised at his assessment, which leads me to believe that he hasn't played the golf course enough, had a bad experience or something because the Gordon holes are some of the best I've seen from the Gordons. The second hole alone stands out.

Eric Pevoto

  • Karma: +0/-0
Re: Bucks County Country Club (William Gordon)
« Reply #3 on: February 12, 2009, 01:25:57 AM »
Oh boy. 

Did Jeff work for Toll Bros? No. 

From memory, the deal included the re-routing as such.  Corridors were widened as much as possible.  Adapted from ridiculous to bearable.

Are the new holes out of character? Yes.

Is the new course playable?  Yes.

Is it a monument to the Gordons? hmmm...
There's no home cooking these days.  It's all microwave.Bill Kittleman

Golf doesn't work for those that don't know what golf can be...Mike Nuzzo

Bob Harris

  • Karma: +0/-0
Re: Bucks County Country Club (William Gordon)
« Reply #4 on: February 12, 2009, 10:08:37 AM »
RE: inspiration for the greens at BCCC.

My next door neighbor until 1965 was Al Sussman, the owner and developer of BCCC. (original name was York Road CC)
Before BCCC opened, Al and my father had a regular Sunday game at Baederwood CC (NLE) until it closed, which was originally the Noble Course of HVCC.  During the summer the course was being built, Al would "hold court" on the front porch with the drawings and tell us the thinking behind some of  Gordon's ideas and his input as the owner.  He mentioned a couple of different greens but I specifically remember the 4th (which was later rebuilt) and the tiered 5th green were based on Baederwood greens.  I also recall that he was never happy with the 18th hole and the in course OB that had to be put in to protect the 13th tee.  His idea was to have 18 a par 3 based on the 12th at ANGC, but with the parking lot on the left, he knew that would be a problem. 

Mike_Cirba

Re: Bucks County Country Club (William Gordon)
« Reply #5 on: February 12, 2009, 05:00:49 PM »
Bob,

Thanks for that info...very interesting.   

The Noble course is one I'm fascinated by for a number of reasons.

Kyle,

I'd love to debate further, and i think it's an interesting discussion given the vastly different types of holes...I just can't type much right now with a cast on my hand.   

Another day?


Steve_ Shaffer

  • Karma: +0/-0
Re: Bucks County Country Club (William Gordon)
« Reply #6 on: February 12, 2009, 05:21:38 PM »
Is the Baederwood course the current 9 hole Abington Club? Where was the Noble course?

I'm confused. ???
"Some of us worship in churches, some in synagogues, some on golf courses ... "  Adlai Stevenson
Hyman Roth to Michael Corleone: "We're bigger than US Steel."
Ben Hogan “The most important shot in golf is the next one”

Kyle Harris

Re: Bucks County Country Club (William Gordon)
« Reply #7 on: February 12, 2009, 05:23:33 PM »
Is the Baederwood course the current 9 hole Abington Club? Where was the Noble course?

I'm confused. ???

The Abington Club is comprised of a portion of the old Old York Road Country Club, including Tillinghast's Moat Hole.

The Baederwood Course was located right next to Noble Station on the R3 along "The Fairway" in Abington. There's a Barnes and Noble at the intersection with The Fairway and York Road. The course was located in that valley all the way to Valley Rd. and Susquehanna Rd along the R3.

And now, I must digress because I'll be darned if my 5000th post is on a thread about Bucks County CC!

Steve_ Shaffer

  • Karma: +0/-0
Re: Bucks County Country Club (William Gordon)
« Reply #8 on: February 12, 2009, 05:51:07 PM »
Kyle,

Your 5001 post should be about the nearby Meadowbrook course complete with pictures. ;D


"Some of us worship in churches, some in synagogues, some on golf courses ... "  Adlai Stevenson
Hyman Roth to Michael Corleone: "We're bigger than US Steel."
Ben Hogan “The most important shot in golf is the next one”

Mike_Cirba

Re: Bucks County Country Club (William Gordon)
« Reply #9 on: February 13, 2009, 07:29:50 AM »
Kyle,

Your 5001 post should be about the nearby Meadowbrook course complete with pictures. ;D




Steve,

What do you know about the origins of Meadowbrook and/or who designed it?

I'm guessing Garrett Renn or George Fazio when it was a nine-holer, early 60s,  but I've been able to find out next to nothing.   Do you have any insight?

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