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Bill_McBride

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Re: Using OB as a design strategy near greens
« Reply #25 on: February 10, 2009, 05:45:09 PM »
Quote from: Jaeger Kovich on February 10, 2009, 05:03:46 PM
What about courses where the route scheme has an outer loop around the perimitter of the property, before turning in where the rest of the holes are in the interior of the site? I feel like I have seen this scheme in a few books before, and certainly has a number of greens, and entire holes for that matter, along OB stakes.


Jaeger, Muirfield (Scotland), Chicago Golf Club, and Sonoma Golf Club (N. Calif) share that routing scheme; I've seen it called a "Muirfield routing." 

In all three cases the front nine goes clockwise around the perimeter and the back nine more or less counterclockwise inside.

The advantages are (1) The out of bounds is always on the left, generally favoring the average player who typically slices and challenging the better player who is more likely to draw the ball; and (2) continually changing direction so the wind comes from a different direction a lot.
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Cristian

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Re: Using OB as a design strategy near greens
« Reply #26 on: February 10, 2009, 07:39:03 PM »
How many of these holes should one realistically allow in a round?

The more there are, the more cautious one would need to play.

Kennemer here in the netherlands has an outer /inner loop routing. However the outer loop is anti-clockwise (slice=ob). Having said that OB is not in play on every hole on the first nine. (and lefties are OK too)  :)
« Last Edit: February 10, 2009, 08:04:53 PM by Cristian Willaert »
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JohnV

Re: Using OB as a design strategy near greens
« Reply #27 on: February 10, 2009, 07:44:59 PM »
Quote from: Morgan Clawson on February 09, 2009, 10:49:41 PM
My biggest pet peeve is having OB close to line of play and then having a cart path run inside of that.  Innevitably, the ball will bound off the cart path and out of bounds.  Totally unfair.

So, if they put the OB fence inside the cart path would it suddenly become fair?
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Jon Wiggett

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Re: Using OB as a design strategy near greens
« Reply #28 on: February 11, 2009, 03:30:13 AM »
Quote from: John Chilver-Stainer on February 10, 2009, 04:58:54 PM
I haven’t seen any  recent courses designed by a GCA using OB as such an aggressive design option next to a green. Personally I think he would probably be crucified by the golfing public but it’s nice to know the Golfclubatlas Discussion Group would welcome it. :)


John,

how many recent courses are there in your top 10? Didn't Dr. Mac think controversy was a good thing?
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John Chilver-Stainer

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Re: Using OB as a design strategy near greens
« Reply #29 on: February 11, 2009, 04:55:29 AM »
Dear contributors - don’t forget the discussion is about Out of Bounds VERY CLOSE TO A GREEN not OB in general or against a fairway - and if  a CONTEMPORARY DESIGNER not a pre-war designer, deliberatly placed the green next to a fence.

Jon, I don’t dispute the validity of OB close to a Green, in some cases I think it can be a valuable defence of the green against a short to mid iron approach. Maybe it has even more effect at making a long hole into a Par 4 and a 1/2 - persuading the golfer to lay up rather than risk the OB next to the green.

I’m more interested what the Discussion Group would think if a contemporary designer placed a Green against a fence - it appears the Discussion Group would like it.

To take it to an extreme - what if an OB fence was put against the right hand side of the 18th Green at ANGC, would it enhance the strategy? What if the fence was removed behind the 18th Green at TOC - would it diminish the strategic options?
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Mark_Rowlinson

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Re: Using OB as a design strategy near greens
« Reply #30 on: February 11, 2009, 06:38:52 AM »
John, it's not so much the fence behind the 18th green at TOC as the one to the right where the pin was cut for the final day of the 2005 Open.

Funnily enough I was discussing this issue with the course manager at a club yesterday where they have two greens on short par 4s with OOB a few feet from the edge of the putting surface. They are just waiting for the first insurance claim. They have tried all sorts of artificial means, such as planting trees, putting up nets, inserting bunkers on the straight line, moving tees etc so that people drive away from the OOB and then approach the green at more of an angle, but this negates the original Colt design philosophy in which players were encouraged to risk trying to drive the green.

There are a lot of such old courses in the UK surrounded by roads or housing and on an area of perhaps 100-120 acres. This is going to be a major problem. They cannot easily re-route. With much heavier weekday play and golfers hitting the ball farther (and also more wildly) plus a litigious public I imagine that architects here are going to have their ingenuity tested in trying to reroute on tight sites to ensure the club retains 18 holes, and the likelihood of par dropping a shot or two.

The OOB on the clubhouse terrace on the 18th at Royal Troon is a significant factor as you play to the green.   
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Kevin Pallier

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Re: Using OB as a design strategy near greens
« Reply #31 on: February 11, 2009, 06:49:35 AM »
A lot of the "Open" courses have the OOB around or near the green on the 18th. TOC, Carnoustie, Lytham, Royal St Georges etc all have it in resonable close proximity.

Hoylake is one where there's more distance than the others on it's 18th but there's others in the round. It's first is one of the more striking examples as well. A simple but strategic use off the drive and near the green made it a very difficult hole - yet distance is no object.
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Jon Wiggett

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Re: Using OB as a design strategy near greens
« Reply #32 on: February 11, 2009, 09:17:21 AM »
John,

I am of the same opinion as Mark that it is the right hand OOB that is the most relevant removing it from behind wouldn't affect the hole much if at all. If you were to remove ththe right hand OOB by extending the course out to the right, were this possible, you would change the holes strategy alot. If you were to take the 'safety margin' of 10 meters by letting a strip of rough grow and making the green smaller it would IMHO take alot away from the hole.

OBB to the right of the 18th at ANGC would make the hole tougher but probably reduce the excitement of playing it.
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Lou_Duran

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Re: Using OB as a design strategy near greens
« Reply #33 on: February 11, 2009, 12:15:52 PM »
For the most part, having OB near playing areas is poor gca and a huge damper on the fun component of playing the game.  Internal OB is particularly odious.   
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Mark_Fine

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Re: Using OB as a design strategy near greens
« Reply #34 on: February 11, 2009, 03:53:46 PM »
I have not read the posts so this may have already been mentioned but does anyone here think that OB was part of the design of the 17th hole at The Old Course at St. Andrews?  I sure hope not.  There was no such thing as OB.  The concept evolved and holes like the 17th that were already there simply became impacted by the concept over time.  I have never liked OB as a design feature but today it is used often, very often.
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Joe Hancock

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Re: Using OB as a design strategy near greens
« Reply #35 on: February 11, 2009, 05:05:54 PM »
OT, but I just read all the posts in this thread in less than 3 minutes......
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" What the hell is the point of architecture and excellence in design if a "clever" set up trumps it all?" Peter Pallotta, June 21, 2016

"People aren't picking a side of the fairway off a tee because of a randomly internally contoured green ."  jeffwarne, February 24, 2017

Mark_Fine

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Re: Using OB as a design strategy near greens
« Reply #36 on: February 11, 2009, 05:23:07 PM »
Joe,
Sometimes I find it is better to just respond with one's thoughts based on the initial post and be done with it  ;) 
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Joe Hancock

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Re: Using OB as a design strategy near greens
« Reply #37 on: February 11, 2009, 06:53:57 PM »
Quote from: Mark_Fine on February 11, 2009, 05:23:07 PM
Joe,
Sometimes I find it is better to just respond with one's thoughts based on the initial post and be done with it  ;) 

Obviously, I don't possess that kind of restraint.

Joe
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" What the hell is the point of architecture and excellence in design if a "clever" set up trumps it all?" Peter Pallotta, June 21, 2016

"People aren't picking a side of the fairway off a tee because of a randomly internally contoured green ."  jeffwarne, February 24, 2017

Jon Wiggett

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Re: Using OB as a design strategy near greens
« Reply #38 on: February 12, 2009, 09:07:18 AM »
Hope this works. How about this for OOB close to the green :o

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Bill_McBride

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Re: Using OB as a design strategy near greens
« Reply #39 on: February 12, 2009, 09:17:34 AM »
Quote from: Jon Wiggett on February 12, 2009, 09:07:18 AM
Hope this works. How about this for OOB close to the green :o



Very cool, Jon, with the church and cemetery in the background.  A true Road hole.  Where is it?

Thanks.
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John Chilver-Stainer

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Re: Using OB as a design strategy near greens
« Reply #40 on: February 12, 2009, 10:04:44 AM »
Looks fun Jon - I like the „feed-in“ from the left

I can’t see the white posts though ???
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Bill_McBride

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Re: Using OB as a design strategy near greens
« Reply #41 on: February 12, 2009, 10:16:38 AM »
Quote from: Kevin Pallier on February 11, 2009, 06:49:35 AM
A lot of the "Open" courses have the OOB around or near the green on the 18th. TOC, Carnoustie, Lytham, Royal St Georges etc all have it in resonable close proximity.

Hoylake is one where there's more distance than the others on it's 18th but there's others in the round. It's first is one of the more striking examples as well. A simple but strategic use off the drive and near the green made it a very difficult hole - yet distance is no object.

Here's what Kevin's talking about...........the "cop" is OB.  The hole is a 45 degree dogleg right, with all the inside of the dogleg (over the cops) OB.  :o

« Last Edit: February 12, 2009, 10:42:28 AM by Bill_McBride »
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Mark_Rowlinson

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Re: Using OB as a design strategy near greens
« Reply #42 on: February 12, 2009, 10:27:51 AM »
This aerial shows the 1st and 16th (normal club hole order, 3rd and 18th for the Open). You can see just how adjacent the 1st green is to the OOB, and there is scarcely more leeway on the 16th.


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Jon Wiggett

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Re: Using OB as a design strategy near greens
« Reply #43 on: February 12, 2009, 10:38:28 AM »
Bill,

it is the 3rd green at a course at Loch Carron in the Highlands.

John,

I seem to remember reading it on the 'local rules' OOB only needs to be marked if it is not obvious.
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Bill_McBride

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Re: Using OB as a design strategy near greens
« Reply #44 on: February 12, 2009, 10:41:03 AM »
Quote from: Mark_Rowlinson on February 12, 2009, 10:27:51 AM
This aerial shows the 1st and 16th (normal club hole order, 3rd and 18th for the Open). You can see just how adjacent the 1st green is to the OOB, and there is scarcely more leeway on the 16th.




Mark, I think I should have given you credit for the photo I posted of the 1st at Hoylake from Ran's profile.  By the way, that's Craig Disher and me losing to a bogey in our foursomes match at the 2006 Buda Cup!  :-\  Captain Rich Goodale is staring on sternly on the left.

Jon, if that's any indication of how good the course is overall, that's one I'd love to see some day.  Thanks for posting.

« Last Edit: February 12, 2009, 10:44:22 AM by Bill_McBride »
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Jon Wiggett

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Re: Using OB as a design strategy near greens
« Reply #45 on: February 12, 2009, 11:41:53 AM »
Bill,

Loch Carron is typical of many of the small hidden away 9 hole courses found dotted around Scotland and especially the Highlands. I don't know if I would recommend an extra trip to play it but if you are passing by it is one of those quick 75 minute rounds that are such fun. These sort of courses often have more charm and quirk than many a bigger course.

This is a picture of the 1st tee with the road tight to the left and Loch to the right.



After a good carry to reach dry land you will be hard pressed to find the green. This is minimalistic design with a capital 'M'.



another view from the other side



finally the last green (sorry but the batteries were playing up so no more photos)





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Mark_Rowlinson

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Re: Using OB as a design strategy near greens New
« Reply #46 on: February 12, 2009, 11:48:09 AM »
Don't you just loathe busy courses. Bliss!

Here's another busy Scottish course, Leadhills. This is the 2nd green with OOB right and through. I played here with hickories and Alfie Ward - great fun.

« Last Edit: February 12, 2009, 11:57:47 AM by Mark_Rowlinson »
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