[TEPaul]

"That's true, it's a cumbersome location to transition to and from, but, with some intelligent thought and a few dollars I'm sure a solution could be achieved."


Patrick:

Would you care to know what Hugh Alison's solution was?


Listen, Pat, I was just thinking, I'm all set up and prepared to offer an adult continuing education course in golf course architecture, even one that concentrates on a fundamental background education and understanding of the architectural evolution of PVGC! Would you like to sign up? Since you're such a good friend of mine I'd be more than happy to give you my extra special secret discount price.

[Patrick_Mucci]

"That's true, it's a cumbersome location to transition to and from, but, with some intelligent thought and a few dollars I'm sure a solution could be achieved."


Patrick:

Would you care to know what Hugh Alison's solution was?


Listen, Pat, I was just thinking, I'm all set up and prepared to offer an adult continuing education course in golf course architecture, even one that concentrates on a fundamental background education and understanding of the architectural evolution of PVGC!

How much do you have to pay the participants to attend ?

Would you like to sign up?


Sure, if the price is right.

Since you're such a good friend of mine I'd be more than happy to give you my extra special secret discount price.


As long as it's at least three times what the other participants get paid, I'm in.   Will Sully be a guest lecturer ?  Do we get paid extra for that class ?

[TEPaul]

Patrick:

The deal is you can learn but only if you agree to do so. For this shucking and jiving and clowning around of yours you will get no more consideration than a stool and duncecap in the back corner of the classroom.

[Patrick_Mucci]

http://www.historicaerials.com/default.aspx?poi=3850

[PGertner]

This area was NOT used as a tee for the Walker Cup.  If my memory serves me well, this is where a small TV tower was installed for Walker Cup coverage. 

Patrick Gertner
Potowomut GC
East Greenwich, RI

[TEPaul]

Patrick Gertner:

I think it's a pretty sure thing that there never was a tee back in there (until the last few years) but I doubt no matter what the evidence is there was never a tee back in there that Patrick Mucci is ever going to admit that.

Not that that matters much, however, as he's had a lot of off-the-mark ideas and suggestions about Pine Valley.

[archie_struthers]

 


Always nice to hear Pat Gert  on site, as many of you may know , he is a fine superintendent and spent lots of time around PVGC  .  He would know.

The area behind the lake and the little bunker has been maintained since the late 70's as best I can remember.  It was often used as a drop area for skulled sand shots that went from the  front " beach"   bunker into the lake.

When you think back of all the cool stuff at PV , you might forget that front ring of sand around the green , what I called the "beach"  many times .
It actually ebbed and flowed a little withthe height of the lake in the old days,  now the water height is more closely regulated by pumps and the like.  Many times we loopers prayed  for our players balls to jump onto the"beach" , which left a fun but fairly easy shot.   We knew that the shot from the drop area in front of the lake was harder than the tee shot  !

I always thought that would be a fun tee behind the green  , but it would bring some added liability into play as players leave the new tee , and a new bridge would be awful aesthetically.

As to the tee shot , which I have played a few times from there , it's a lot easier for a left to right brain than the current tee, as the whole fairway opens up to you.  Think of that, an eighty yard wide fairway that I'm thinking  favors a hook ,   LOL!
 

[TEPaul]

ARCHIE:

Did you know that in his important hole by hole report to the "1921 Advisory Committee" (of which he was actually made a member) Hugh Alison recommended for the tees on this hole thusly;

"The tees should be constructed on the promontory which lies to the right and in front of the present tee, and the lake should be bridged just to the right of these if practicable. If the lake is too deep for this, it would, no doubt, be possible to construct a floating-bridge without undue expense."

However, Alison also proposed that this hole not be a par 5 but a long par 4 of 450 yards that would play longer as it would essentially run gradually uphill. His green site suggestion was along the ridge that runs across the fairway at about 125 yards from the present green.

[PAW13]

Sully

I am pretty sure and Archie and Pat backed it up that they did not use the tee for the Walker Cup.

TP

The ball drop 70 yards short of the green is now used for all balls in the hazard or of course you can retee it if you want.   I think the members can play a provisional from the ball drop (for pace of play) if they think their ball may be on the 15th tee.

Archie

Starting my hook over the two trees just over the water on 15 never really excites me from that new back tee.  I seemed to end up in the new sliver bunker alot more than the front tee.

[TEPaul]

One thing here never really occured to me. That is Hugh Alison's hole by hole report to the so-called "1921 Advisory Committee" seem all pretty excellent to me. A number of his recommendations were adopted and done but certainly not all including his proposal for the 15th hole.

With his suggestions on the 15th hole they dealt with them in two separate ways---eg his suggested change for the tee on the promotory that he described as far to the right and ahead of the existing tee was put off to consider later but his suggestion for making the hole a long par 4 was disapproved as too expensive and they wanted to look at the current hole in play for a time.

But for Alison to suggest the green on #15 to go where he said would've required a really long walk of about 200 yards to get to the 16th tee. The 16th had been in play for a number of years.

One thing Crump really did not like at all or want at Pine Valley was any long green to next tee commutes.

But if they'd accepted Alison's suggestion for #15 as a long par 4 that would've given PV a par 69 and only one par 5. Unless another hole back then was being played essetially as a par 5 like #4 or #13.

What's going on Hugh? 

[Willie_Dow]

Tom/Pat

When did they dredge out the lake/pond between 15 tee and 16 green ?

It looks to me that Pat's promontory is there on page 62, but it certainly isn't much.

My favorite story was to tell my first timer that the hole was a par three, and tell him to hit to the 16th green.  It worked a few times.

[Alan FitzGerald CGCS MG]

Tom/Pat

When did they dredge out the lake/pond between 15 tee and 16 green ?

Can't remember exactly but it was winter '02 or '03
we found 'a few' balls

[TEPaul]

Willie:

When you ask when the lake was dredged do you mean what that area looked like when he bought the place compared to what may've been done in that area to take holes into that area which neither he nor Colt really did in the original routings or for some years apparently after holes began to be built on the course. Don't forget holes #12-15 were still no opened for play when Crump died in Jan 1918. Some have implied Crump may've dropped some serious additional money on the lake or around it when he got into finalizing #13-15 but frankly I've never known much about the details of that or even if there are many.

[Willie_Dow]

Tom - I don't have my copy of the H. S. Colt routing that you and Wayne found.  But didn't it have some detail of a lake or stream in the area of 14 and 15 tee ?

[TEPaul]

"Tom - I don't have my copy of the H. S. Colt routing that you and Wayne found.  But didn't it have some detail of a lake or stream in the area of 14 and 15 tee?"


Willie:

No it didn't. Neither Colt's routing nor Crump's first routing came within app 150 yards or more of what is now the 14th green and 15th tee. Colt's 13th hole ended about halfway down the present 13th hole and his 14th hole came straight down off #13's ridgeline to a green that would've been about 1/4 of the way up the present 15th hole. From there Colt's 15th continued up what is now about the last 3/4 of the present 15th.

[Alan FitzGerald CGCS MG]

Fwiw, when the lake was drained for dredging in '02 /03 the stream continued to flow in a channel (that looked like an original creek) through the center of the lake. There were a lot of stumps in the lake bed which led me to believe that it was just a low area that was dammed up to create the lake. There were also a large number of springs in that area so it was probably a wet area prior to being damed.

[TEPaul]

AlanF:

When Crump found the site I'm pretty sure the area we know as the lake that includes parts of #14, 15, 16 didn't look much like it does now. If it had I doubt the routing and construction on the course would've steered clear of it as long as it did.

I don't think there's much question that one of the problems Crump had is he basically routed and constructed 14 holes and brought them into play which sort of got him stuck in a basic corner thereby limiting his latitude with land and routing possibilities and with how to design and finish off the last four holes (#12-#15). Don't forget Crump very much had something of a preconceived model early on of what types of holes and shot requirements he wanted on his course as well as where they should come in the sequence.

It probably would've been better to totally finalize his routing before beginning construction even though the course sure did work out beautifully in the end.

However, that amazing looking Cape Hole that could've been #14 sure does fascinate me. If he used it though it would've significantly shortened #15 and we wouldn't be having this discussion about the 15th tees in the area we are.

I suspect if that cape hole #14 had been built, it would've been #15 that would be a long par 4 and #16 would've been turned back into the course's second par 5 in the routing---eg its green would've been on that promontory on the lake where Hugh Alison recommended a tee for the 15th. Had that been the case #17 also could've been substantially longer as Crump once visualized it and actually drew it.

This kind of subject is very much part of the details, problems and solutions involved in an overall routing process.

[archie_struthers]

 


TEP just re-read your post and I'm a little mixed up .  Are you saying that  the new 16th green site would have been where 14 green sits today or where 16 green is sited.  I'm so confused !

As to the creek running down the hill on the walk out to 15 fairway,  one of my favorite caddy stories involves the notorious Broadway Joe. PV's Broadway looked a lot like the football legend , and  he often "guaranteed " a yardage to the 1/2 yard.  He was quite the character!

Back to the creek, it's a hot August afternoon  and we are on our second loop with a group  from Chi-Town.  They can't believe how hot and humid it can get in South Jersey when I decided to take my bucket hat , fill it with water from the creek and get a cold drink.  As I was about 50 yards ahead of them I could just hear Broadway admonishing one of the golfers not to drink from the creek  The gentleman quickly responded that he had just seen me take a big drink and half a shower in same.  Broadway. who Rocky Carbone  as a stand-up act,  deadpanned that my  my hair used to be brown , intimating some issues with the stream given my locks are quite a Scottish red .   needless to say no one drank the water and I still laugh thinking about the looks I got when the golfers arrived  in the fairway.!!!!!

Sorry for the aside ,  TEP help me get my bearings straight, as I am trying to figure the relationship to the train tracks and a new 17th tee.
 

regards  ARCHIE

[TEPaul]

"TEP just re-read your post and I'm a little mixed up .  Are you saying that  the new 16th green site would have been where 14 green sits today or where 16 green is sited.  I'm so confused!"

ARCHIE:

I believe the alternative green site Crump had been considering if he returned #16 to a par 5 (which it had been in his original 1913 routing) would've been on the promontory behind the 14th green (by maybe 75-100 yards). It does mention the third shot would've been over water. That would also explain why his original iteration for #17 would've been a longer hole (the tee would've been considerably behind where it is now).

The new 17th tee?? Don't tell me they have actually gone BEHIND the waterworks with a new tee. I do know a few years ago they were seemingly considering that. I went back in there one time with somebody from PV. It was probably J.O. That is pretty close to the tracks but of course there are plenty of trees back in there to block out the view of the tracks; unless of course they did something really foolish such as listen to a bozomeister like Patrick Mucci and use a 1925 aerial or photograph as a blueprint for tree removal. 

Actually, ARCHIE, do tell me there's a new tee back in there. If there was that really was where Crump was looking at a tee for #17 when he had it planned at around 375!    But if they went behind the waterworks I can't exactly imagine what that would look like playing over it.

PS:
I'm glad you are beginning to use capitals with your name ARCHIE! A man of your stature in the world of golf and architecture should always use capitals to spell his name.

[archie_struthers]

 


There is a road that runs behind the 14th green which we used on occasion when a storm came up or we just  had to get in quick . The road runs along a fence which I always assumed marked the property line, and ultimately carries around behind the water works , seventeen tee and heads back to the clubhouse from there.  It's pretty wet on either side of the road until you get close to the tee. I really doubt anyone would ever have thought about anything but a deer stand back there.   

If you did something to lengthen the hole it would have to be right of the existing tee as you are looking towards the green.... choo.. choo!

[Patrick_Mucci_Jr]

Archie,

Of all the holes, why would someone want to lengthen # 17 ?

It has it's own built in defense for extra long tee shots, the huge bunker short of the green, which is certainly not the ideal spot to approach from.

[Mike_Cirba]

If anything should be done to 17, the old right-side fairway should be restored.

As seen recently on the new historicaerials.com website, that fairway looked to still be in play by the 1950s, and part's are still visible by 1970.

[Patrick_Mucci_Jr]

http://www.historicaerials.com/default.aspx?poi=3850

[Mike_Cirba]

Patrick,

C'mon...I want credit for that one, as I started the "Watch Pine Valley evolve over the years" thread a few weeks back that showed the encroachment of trees and undergrowth over the years to the detriment of the architected historical playing areas. 

Gimme a footnote or something! 

[archie_struthers]

 


Pat ,  we were just musing .....someone might want to lengthen #17 as it plays very short at times , with big hitters hitting 3 or even 4 irons in the old days and  some sort of rescue today.  As we speak #4 is getting enhanced . if only for tournament play.


Your thread led to alternative routings that had been proposed , or even imagined, as regards the land behind and actually east of  14 green .  I'll bet very few members even know of the road to perdition that runs behind #14 green and gives you a new perspective  of the space behind 17 tee and the pump house /water works TEP alluded to.   

Actually many people have thought about the land you identified as a teeing ground for 15 , and we played it there some nights back in the early eighties, I  must confess it set up better for my controllled slice back then  lol!   

 As discussed  it was most used as a drop area for skulls out of the front "beach bunker" , whose consistency made for some interesting shots .
If there is a spot on the Valley that you might find the Jersey Devil , this has to be near the top of the list along with right of the 13th fairway and the road betwen the cllubhouse and the cottages.  Try walking that one late at night with a few young scotches under your belt .....

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