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Patrick_Mucci

# 15 at PV - The foot pad behind # 14 green - A back tee ?
« on: February 10, 2009, 09:47:44 PM »
Behind the 14th green, across the water on the far bank is a constructed turf pier that clearly appears to be the foot pad for a tee for the 15th hole.

Was this created as a back tee for # 15 ?

If so, who constructed it, and when ?

If not, would it not make a great back tee for # 15 ?

Willie_Dow

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Re: # 15 at PV - The foot pad behind # 14 green - A back tee ?
« Reply #1 on: February 10, 2009, 09:57:30 PM »
Yeah Pat - Saw that and decided to take my ball across the bridge and tee it up across the pond.
Things are not what they used to be.
« Last Edit: February 10, 2009, 10:00:07 PM by Willie_Dow »

Sean Leary

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Re: # 15 at PV - The foot pad behind # 14 green - A back tee ?
« Reply #2 on: February 10, 2009, 10:45:01 PM »
Pat,

How would it change the hole? It would add length and change the angle of the tee shot, but I am not sure it would improve the hole.

But it sure looks like there should be one there.

Patrick_Mucci

Re: # 15 at PV - The foot pad behind # 14 green - A back tee ?
« Reply #3 on: February 11, 2009, 08:21:39 AM »
Sean,

It would also change the angle at which the ball impacts the terrain, which slopes left to right, effectively making the hole longer for today's bombers.

The carry over the water is longer, but, that carry doesn't affect the big hitters.

It provides another benefit.

The current tee is in the target or hazard zone off the 14th tee.
So much so that a huge net was erected to try to stop balls from hitting golfers on the 15th tee.

The current 15th tee has NO room to expand the tee.
It's a small tee.

Creating a new tee and perhaps expanding it would solve the problems currently faced on the existing tee, so, there's more than one benefit to creating or recapturing that area as teeing area.

Deucie Bies

Re: # 15 at PV - The foot pad behind # 14 green - A back tee ?
« Reply #4 on: February 11, 2009, 08:56:12 AM »
Does anyone have any pics of the tee box and proposed area?

Matthew Rose

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Re: # 15 at PV - The foot pad behind # 14 green - A back tee ?
« Reply #5 on: February 11, 2009, 09:14:49 AM »

On the google maps aerial there is a very small green spot under a tree, directly behind the 14th green if you follow the playing line from the 14th. It looks like it is tucked back near the railway. The hole might be 30-40 yards longer from this point.
American-Australian. Trackman Course Guy. Fatalistic sports fan. Drummer. Bass player. Father. Cat lover.

Sean Leary

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Re: # 15 at PV - The foot pad behind # 14 green - A back tee ?
« Reply #6 on: February 11, 2009, 09:17:18 AM »
Pat,

I could see it as a tournament tee to make the best players hit a longer club on their second to lay up. But for 99 percent of golfers, it is a three shot hole. Still can't believe people have gotten home there.

Kyle Harris

Re: # 15 at PV - The foot pad behind # 14 green - A back tee ?
« Reply #7 on: February 11, 2009, 09:19:39 AM »
Didn't Crump build many different iterations of holes early on? Clearing corridors to get ideas, etc?

Tom Birkert

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Re: # 15 at PV - The foot pad behind # 14 green - A back tee ?
« Reply #8 on: February 11, 2009, 09:35:06 AM »
Pat,

I could see it as a tournament tee to make the best players hit a longer club on their second to lay up. But for 99 percent of golfers, it is a three shot hole. Still can't believe people have gotten home there.

Quite... They don't have Par 5s there, they are Par 6s!! Playing off the backs, if you don't flush your drive on 7 then you're not getting over Hell's Half Acre in 2.

15 plays so long up that hill I would agree that for every mortal out there it's a three shotter too.

TEPaul

Re: # 15 at PV - The foot pad behind # 14 green - A back tee ?
« Reply #9 on: February 11, 2009, 09:37:23 AM »
"Behind the 14th green, across the water on the far bank is a constructed turf pier that clearly appears to be the foot pad for a tee for the 15th hole.

Was this created as a back tee for # 15 ?"


Patrick:

It all depends on what you are looking at today but if you're talking about in Crump's time for the next eight or so decades, I don't think so. I think you're seeng something in there that never existed if you happen to be looking at some old aerials or photos.

The iterations on the 14th and 15th holes years ago during Crump's life and just afterwards are very interesting however but basically that hole is fairly similar to the way it was when he last saw it. I believe it was basically routed and "roughed in" (and from the tee to the left of the 14th green) when Crump died, and then was finished off in the next few years by Govan, Wilson and definitely Flynn (Flynn actually went on the PV payroll for an extended time around this time). 

Obviously you don't know that course very well Patrick because you seem to be proposing something that already exists. I guess you weren't aware that in the last few years they put in a new tee back in there extending the length of that hole to 615 yards from around 575.

This is what happens when you just continue to flounder around trying to act like you know what you're talking about with PV. The truth is if I don't constantly monitor your observations and suggestions the risk of you getting all mixed up and extremely confused is very great. ;)
« Last Edit: February 11, 2009, 09:40:41 AM by TEPaul »

TEPaul

Re: # 15 at PV - The foot pad behind # 14 green - A back tee ?
« Reply #10 on: February 11, 2009, 10:02:37 AM »
"Didn't Crump build many different iterations of holes early on? Clearing corridors to get ideas, etc?"


Kyle:

There were a number of interesting iterations on #13-16 that Crump considered but they weren't built even though there was a lot of clearing done to see and consider them.

One was seemingly a most amazing iteration for #14 that I make and measure out to have been about a 240 yard carry to a cape green over water with the green right around where today's 15th fairway begins over the lake. The tee was up somewhere around today's lower tees are on #14. The safe option for that Cape Hole 14th iteration was to play to a fairway to the left basically where the "Nature Walk" is today that is the way golfers get from the 15th tee over the bridge and around to the 15th fairway. The option of playing safe into the fairway left would've made that Cape Hole iteration play about 300 yards.

If one analyzes that land area (and water area) carefully it sure does look to me like that #14 Cape Hole iteration could've been one of the world's most exciting and multi-optional holes in the world. But alas, to do it and to put the green in that area would've screwed up the length of the 15th as the very long par 5 that Crump wanted as his second par 5. 

This probably had something to do with the fact that Crump was very much at loose-ends as to what to do with #15 when he died even if the present #14 was already in the process of construction (and the Cape Hole iteration had been given up).

The truth is Crump was still very much considering making #16!! his second par 5 just as it had been in his original routing iteration back in early 1913. He wanted to put the 16th green on the peninsula behind #14 green and that is why his initial plan for #17 was for a longer hole----app. 365-375 instead of the app 325-330 it turned out to be.

However, if he was to be able to make #16 the second par 5 (and he wanted two unreachable "in two" par 5s on that course) he would've had to take the tee for it somewhere up within about 50 yards or less from the 11th green where he once had the tee on his early 1913 #16 iteration.

I guess you can see how this kind of thing makes for a certain amount of confusion as the truth is Crump had basically built himself into something of a box by not finalizing his routing totally before constructing most of the rest of the course and bringing about 14 holes into play.

The truth is Crump's original routing was not using any of the land (basically wetland) within about 250 yards of the 14th hole and 15th tee or even the 13th green. When he went out that far that was when he got into some serious lake construction where and when he apparently dropped some serious money in making those holes and that more formalized lake and the entire waterworks and such that one can see behind the 17th tee.


It makes me fairly nervous to write all this for a number of reasons; not the least reason being this additional information is likely to so confuse Patrick Mucci that it will probably take me another ten years to straighten him out even to some moderate extent! And this is the same man who said above that Pine Valley should call him up and ask for his opinions on this golf course!?! Can you believe that?! Why would they want to do something like that with a man who is that ignorant about the architectural history and evolution of PV? ;)

What is that Biblical admonishment? Something like, "He knows not of what he speaks."
 
 
 
« Last Edit: February 11, 2009, 10:23:11 AM by TEPaul »

JESII

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Re: # 15 at PV - The foot pad behind # 14 green - A back tee ?
« Reply #11 on: February 11, 2009, 01:29:19 PM »
Pat,

There is a pad where you describe that I always heard was built for, and used during, the Walker Cup in 1985...they have since created a tee that does much of what you suggest but also has more length than the Walker Cup tee...either way there is a minor (emphasis on minor) logistical problem when leaving the 15th tee and the group behind is hitting into the 14th green.

Perhaps they could add in a shuttle bus/boat straight across the pond from that tee and you could put your other suggestions in the "Suggestion Box" out in the middle of the lake...

Alan FitzGerald CGCS MG

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Re: # 15 at PV - The foot pad behind # 14 green - A back tee ?
« Reply #12 on: February 11, 2009, 01:42:38 PM »
It's been a while since I went back there, but the original pad was a ball drop for balls that went in the water behind the green. I'm not 100% sure but I believe the new one is a 'back' tee for 15.
Golf construction & maintenance are like creating a masterpiece; Da Vinci didn't paint the Mona Lisa's eyes first..... You start with the backdrop, layer on the detail and fine tune the finished product into a masterpiece

Kalen Braley

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Re: # 15 at PV - The foot pad behind # 14 green - A back tee ?
« Reply #13 on: February 11, 2009, 01:54:19 PM »
Here is an aerial of the 14th green and 15th tee.

Based on the descriptions I've read, I'm guessing the red box shows where this back tee is?

JESII

  • Karma: +0/-0
Re: # 15 at PV - The foot pad behind # 14 green - A back tee ?
« Reply #14 on: February 11, 2009, 01:56:21 PM »
Kalen,

Highlight the little brown area about 15 yards left of your box...that's what Pat is describing in his opening post. He is right, but as you can see, the angle is pretty similar to the tee you circled so its got that going for it...
« Last Edit: February 11, 2009, 02:00:48 PM by Jim Sullivan »

Kalen Braley

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Re: # 15 at PV - The foot pad behind # 14 green - A back tee ?
« Reply #15 on: February 11, 2009, 02:10:17 PM »
Jim,

I noticed that as well, but it didn't look like a teeing area.  The photo has been updated with a purple box around it.


Kalen Braley

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Re: # 15 at PV - The foot pad behind # 14 green - A back tee ?
« Reply #16 on: February 11, 2009, 02:15:26 PM »
This pic from maps live shows it a little better IMO.


Sean Leary

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Re: # 15 at PV - The foot pad behind # 14 green - A back tee ?
« Reply #17 on: February 11, 2009, 02:20:04 PM »
Kalen,

Highlight the little brown area about 15 yards left of your box...that's what Pat is describing in his opening post. He is right, but as you can see, the angle is pretty similar to the tee you circled so its got that going for it...

Sully,

Isn't there another pad also that is even closer to 16 green not in the aerial? It would involve walking there and back around past the current tee, so there would be flowus interruptus maximus, but I think you could put one there as well.

The current walk from 15 tee to fairway is already quite a trek.

Kalen Braley

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Re: # 15 at PV - The foot pad behind # 14 green - A back tee ?
« Reply #18 on: February 11, 2009, 02:37:23 PM »
Sean,

Here is a picture of the north-east side of the pond.  There doesn't appear to be any additional tee locations, but by all means it looks like one could be made.  I'm not sure what it would accomplish though outside of a new angle to the fairway as the hole would still play a similar length to what is already there.

TEPaul

Re: # 15 at PV - The foot pad behind # 14 green - A back tee ?
« Reply #19 on: February 11, 2009, 02:44:20 PM »
Sully:

I've never heard they added a tee on #15 for the 1985 Walker Cup but that wouldn't be hard to find out. Perhaps you're confusing it with the 16th hole where they did add a new tee for the 1985 Walker Cup.

In a bit I'll post Hugh Alison's proposal for this hole which is pretty interesting but it was one of the items in his hole by hole report for the "1921 Advisory Committee" (at least that's what I call it) that the club nixed.


In Kalen Braley's photograph in reply #18 you will notice how the land juts out some into the lake right about the middle of the photo. W.P. Smith wrote on 10/10/17 that George Crump was still considering the alternative iteration of placing the 16th green there. But in less than three month Crump would be dead.

I think since the very beginning in Crump's mind it was the 16th that was to be a par 5. That's what he had it as in his initial routing before Colt showed up. When the routing was essentially developed with Colt it took out his original tee position for #16 basically because of the design of #11 and the placement of that green, which in Crump's original routing iteration was basically where his 15th green was.

So the point I'm making is for him to return the 16th to a long par 5 in the sequence it would've been necessary for him to take the green farther out and put it on that basic peninsula behind #14. We know he actively thought of this since his initial 17th hole (which he drew a copy of himself) was quite bit longer---eg a tee back in behind the present waterworks (behind the present 17th tee and probably even close to the RR tracks.
« Last Edit: February 11, 2009, 04:21:43 PM by TEPaul »

PAW13

Re: # 15 at PV - The foot pad behind # 14 green - A back tee ?
« Reply #20 on: February 11, 2009, 04:34:03 PM »
TP & Sully

Alan's post regarding the tee pad Pat referenced is correct it was a ball drop for shots that entered the hazard over the back left bunker.

It was discountinued as a ball drop for tournament play, but was kept as a mown area and caused Bill McGuiness and one other player to be DQ'd from the Crump one year because they played it as a live ball drop as their mistakes were discovered at the Players Dinner. 

I believe that after that incident it was no longer kept as a mown tee and thus appears in its current state and old looking tee pad. 

Also starting in 2006 or 2007 the whole 15th tee area left of the green is considered hazard while playing the 14th hole.

JESII

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Re: # 15 at PV - The foot pad behind # 14 green - A back tee ?
« Reply #21 on: February 11, 2009, 04:53:39 PM »
Chet,

Am I totally wrong about it being a Walker Cup tee originally?

TEPaul

Re: # 15 at PV - The foot pad behind # 14 green - A back tee ?
« Reply #22 on: February 11, 2009, 05:42:38 PM »
Chet:

That is interesting about the evolution of the old ball drop behind the 14th green, What do they do now that they don't use it?

I remember looking at it back there for years but you know me and my game---eg I was so short that hitting a ball over that green or any green for that matter wasn't my concern or regular consequence. If I was going to miss a shot it was usually short and on the 14th in the front water not the back water. ;)

I do know that at least one tee was created for the 1985 Walker Cup and it was new back tee on #16 which interestingly enough is no longer the back or tip tee!  ;)

It was from that new back Walker Cup tee where in 1985 Davis Love in practice hit a sort of lowish 1 iron that amazingly carried over the farthest reach of the bunker and trucked all the way out to a position where he hit a 9 iron approach. If what he had done previously on that course with that famous 1 iron driving of his hadn't created enough commotion that particularly tee shot on #16 basically had everyone's eyebrows bouncing up and down.

I believe that 1985 Walker Cup performance of Love and his 1 iron was like the first window on the future of what was about to happen with distance. I think the USGA even asked him if he would come to the Tech Center for testing but he declined as his wrist was getting gimpy (it was tapped up in the 1985 Walker Cup) and it actually took him out of the US Amateur that followed within a week or two.

Hey, Chester, where can I pick up a cheap used pull cart? My brother in law, an artist, just called me about that because he just got the bright idea that he would like to get one and retrofit it somehow to cart his painting paraphenalia around through fields or whatnot. The things people ask me! My God.
« Last Edit: February 11, 2009, 05:48:33 PM by TEPaul »

TEPaul

Re: # 15 at PV - The foot pad behind # 14 green - A back tee ?
« Reply #23 on: February 11, 2009, 05:52:01 PM »
Sully:

I'm almost positive they never had a tee back in there until recently when they put in the new one. I'm pretty sure Chet and the other fellow are absolutely right that what we see in those photos was the old ball drop area behind the back water on #14.

Patrick_Mucci

Re: # 15 at PV - The foot pad behind # 14 green - A back tee ?
« Reply #24 on: February 11, 2009, 06:16:06 PM »

There is a pad where you describe that I always heard was built for, and used during, the Walker Cup in 1985...they have since created a tee that does much of what you suggest but also has more length than the Walker Cup tee...either way there is a minor (emphasis on minor) logistical problem when leaving the 15th tee and the group behind is hitting into the 14th green.

That's true, it's a cumbersome location to transition to and from, but, with some intelligent thought and a few dollars I'm sure a solution could be achieved.

If they could get back and forth for the purposes of dropping a ball, I have to assume they could get back and forth for the purposes of teeing off.

Don't tell TEPaul this, but, on page 62 of Geoff Shackelford's book, "The Golden Age of Golf Design", in a picture circa 1922, it looks like a similar foot pad already existed.

I know TE knows every nook and cranny of that golf course, but, perhaps his focus is limited to features within 30 feet of his golf ball.


Perhaps they could add in a shuttle bus/boat straight across the pond from that tee and you could put your other suggestions in the "Suggestion Box" out in the middle of the lake...

In keeping with the natural setting, I was thinking of a vine, where golfers and caddies could swing across the water, ala Tarzan.


« Last Edit: February 11, 2009, 06:27:47 PM by Patrick_Mucci »

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