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Jeff_Mingay

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World's best sub-par 70 courses?
« on: February 07, 2009, 04:53:07 PM »
I know of a few... but would appreciate any and all additions to the list I'm attempting to compile.

Thanks in advance,
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Brad Klein

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Re: World's best sub-par 70 courses?
« Reply #1 on: February 07, 2009, 04:58:23 PM »
Wannamoisett, par-69, is surely the best of the famous tournament courses in the U.S.
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Tom_Doak

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Re: World's best sub-par 70 courses?
« Reply #2 on: February 07, 2009, 05:02:45 PM »
Jeff:

I think there is a list of them in the back of The Confidential Guide.

I'd guess half (or more) of any top ten list will be from England.  Off the top of my head, there's Rye, Swinley Forest, West Sussex, and St. Enodoc.
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David_Tepper

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Re: World's best sub-par 70 courses?
« Reply #3 on: February 07, 2009, 05:14:05 PM »
Brora
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mark chalfant

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Re: World's best sub-par 70 courses?
« Reply #4 on: February 07, 2009, 05:17:20 PM »
Jeff,

Swinley  Forest
Plymouth Country Club, ( Ross)  par 69
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David Stamm

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Re: World's best sub-par 70 courses?
« Reply #5 on: February 07, 2009, 05:20:18 PM »
I haven't played them, but Rye and Swinley Forest look fantastic.
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"The object of golf architecture is to give an intelligent purpose to the striking of a golf ball."- Max Behr

Tom_Doak

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Re: World's best sub-par 70 courses?
« Reply #6 on: February 07, 2009, 05:20:40 PM »
I would second Plymouth CC as well as Brora.

I hope there is no pressure on Ian Andrew to gain a shot on par at Plymouth. 

I've seen SEVERAL courses that would have been much better if they'd been satisfied with par 69.
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Mike_Clayton

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Re: World's best sub-par 70 courses?
« Reply #7 on: February 07, 2009, 05:25:47 PM »
The West course at Royal Melbourne is a par 72 - but the four par fives are 480 (2), 470 (4),476 (12) and 467 (15) yards long.
Does that make the real par 68 or 69?

In reality they are easily reached two-shot holes that are brilliant long par fours in today's game.
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Sean_A

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Re: World's best sub-par 70 courses?
« Reply #8 on: February 07, 2009, 05:40:05 PM »
Of the ones I like best and I would recommend folks see I would say

St Enodoc
Addington (I can't believe I forgot this one the first go round)
Tenby
Brora
Harlech
Swinley
New Zealand
Strandhill
Temple
Southerness

I spose I have to say Rye & Pulborough as well, but my memory of these two is hazy.

I really wish archies would start building courses like this - sub 70 par and say 6300 yards tops.  Its the way the future of the game should be going.

Ciao
« Last Edit: February 08, 2009, 03:39:58 AM by Sean Arble »
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Jeff_Mingay

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Re: World's best sub-par 70 courses?
« Reply #9 on: February 07, 2009, 05:55:32 PM »
Quote from: Tom_Doak on February 07, 2009, 05:02:45 PM
Jeff:

I think there is a list of them in the back of The Confidential Guide.

Tom,

I could look if I hadn't sold my copy for several thousand dollars... just teasing! I have mine  ;D

Thanks for all the the courses named so far. More? I presume so...
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Bill_McBride

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Re: World's best sub-par 70 courses?
« Reply #10 on: February 07, 2009, 06:06:04 PM »
Elie  8)  and Painswick.   ;D
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Sean_A

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Re: World's best sub-par 70 courses?
« Reply #11 on: February 07, 2009, 06:06:44 PM »
Thinking a bit more about the subject, Gullane #3 and West Cornwall aren't bad shouts.  I am not sure I would reco them, but I have some time for them.  

Ciao
« Last Edit: February 12, 2009, 01:53:02 AM by Sean Arble »
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Mark Pearce

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Re: World's best sub-par 70 courses?
« Reply #12 on: February 07, 2009, 06:22:31 PM »
Quote from: Bill_McBride on February 07, 2009, 06:06:04 PM
Elie  8)  and Painswick.   ;D
Elie is par 70.  16 par 4s, 2 par 3s.  Crail Balcomie?
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Bill_McBride

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Re: World's best sub-par 70 courses?
« Reply #13 on: February 07, 2009, 06:26:57 PM »
Quote from: Mark Pearce on February 07, 2009, 06:22:31 PM
Quote from: Bill_McBride on February 07, 2009, 06:06:04 PM
Elie  8)  and Painswick.   ;D
Elie is par 70.  16 par 4s, 2 par 3s.  Crail Balcomie?

Right you are, Mark.  Balcomie is 69, 3 par 5s and 6 par 3s.  Good call.
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Ian_L

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Re: World's best sub-par 70 courses?
« Reply #14 on: February 07, 2009, 07:14:44 PM »
Might not be up there with the best, but Claremont CC is a par 68.
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David_Tepper

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Re: World's best sub-par 70 courses?
« Reply #15 on: February 07, 2009, 08:02:26 PM »
Ian -

Good call on Claremenot CC. My guess is it could very well be the best sub-par-70 course in California, at the very least.

DT
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Jon Spaulding

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Re: World's best sub-par 70 courses?
« Reply #16 on: February 07, 2009, 08:28:13 PM »
Quote from: David_Tepper on February 07, 2009, 08:02:26 PM
Ian -

Good call on Claremenot CC. My guess is it could very well be the best sub-par-70 course in California, at the very least.

DT

Claremont is the best sub 70 par that I have seen.
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TEPaul

Re: World's best sub-par 70 courses?
« Reply #17 on: February 07, 2009, 08:49:05 PM »
Misquamicutt in Rhode Island is a par 69. A wonderful and fun course; one of my favorites. Primarily Ross although there was a sort of glorified par 3 nine hole course there previously which some believe might've been done by Willie Park in his first visit here. There're a couple of holes or parts of them (maybe up to 4-5) that I think any golf architect who likes to study old architecture should not miss.
« Last Edit: February 07, 2009, 08:52:45 PM by TEPaul »
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Tom_Doak

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Re: World's best sub-par 70 courses?
« Reply #18 on: February 07, 2009, 09:12:05 PM »
Sean:  I thought Machrihanish was par-70 ... isn't the tenth hole still a par-5?  Twelve is also a par five, and there are four short holes.
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Chuck Brown

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Re: World's best sub-par 70 courses?
« Reply #19 on: February 08, 2009, 01:18:52 AM »
One that merits listing - and I am confident that Tom Doak may agree - is Detroit Golf Club (South), Par 68.  Irrespsective of length and par, and notwithstanding the lovely Franklin Hills CC, DGC South is one of the best exemplars of Ross' work in our state.
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Jim Nugent

Re: World's best sub-par 70 courses?
« Reply #20 on: February 08, 2009, 01:48:13 AM »
The Spring Mill course at Phillie CC was par 69 for the 1939 U.S. Open.
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Jeff_Stettner

Re: World's best sub-par 70 courses?
« Reply #21 on: February 08, 2009, 02:42:28 AM »
Longniddry?
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Sean_A

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Re: World's best sub-par 70 courses?
« Reply #22 on: February 08, 2009, 03:39:14 AM »
Quote from: Tom_Doak on February 07, 2009, 09:12:05 PM
Sean:  I thought Machrihanish was par-70 ... isn't the tenth hole still a par-5?  Twelve is also a par five, and there are four short holes.

Tom

You are right.  I was thinking the 10th from the forward tees (my tees) is a par 4.

It has been a very long time since I have seen, DGC South, but I concur with Chuck, it is a good example of not only the work of Ross but a solid sub par 70 course.  Chuck, how is the club doing?  I would have thought with its huge overheads that DGC would be in a serious situation these days.  Though I do think they have a large membership so perhaps this will help ride the storm.

Ciao
« Last Edit: February 08, 2009, 04:26:02 AM by Sean Arble »
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New plays planned for 2024:Winterfield, Alnmouth, Camden, Palmetto Bluff Crossroads Course, Colleton River Dye Course  & Old Barnwell

Jim Nugent

Re: World's best sub-par 70 courses?
« Reply #23 on: February 08, 2009, 03:53:16 AM »
Quote from: Mike_Clayton on February 07, 2009, 05:25:47 PM
The West course at Royal Melbourne is a par 72 - but the four par fives are 480 (2), 470 (4),476 (12) and 467 (15) yards long.
Does that make the real par 68 or 69?

In reality they are easily reached two-shot holes that are brilliant long par fours in today's game.

Mike, I never played the course, but those distances make me wonder: are they in fact long par fours for today's top players?  Purely based on distance, 290 or 300 yard drive would leave a short iron into some of them.  Seems like real long ball hitters might only wedges. 
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Mark Pearce

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Re: World's best sub-par 70 courses?
« Reply #24 on: February 08, 2009, 04:30:38 AM »
Quote from: Mike_Clayton on February 07, 2009, 05:25:47 PM
The West course at Royal Melbourne is a par 72 - but the four par fives are 480 (2), 470 (4),476 (12) and 467 (15) yards long.
Does that make the real par 68 or 69?

In reality they are easily reached two-shot holes that are brilliant long par fours in today's game.
By that reckoning the Berkshire Red also gets a mention. 
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In June I will be riding the first three stages of this year's Tour de France route for charity.  630km (394 miles) in three days, with 7800m (25,600 feet) of climbing for the William Wates Memorial Trust (https://rideleloop.org/the-charity/) which supports underprivileged young people.
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