[TEPaul]

"I'll bet very few members even know of the road to perdition that runs behind #14 green and gives you a new perspective  of the space behind 17 tee and the pump house /water works TEP alluded to."


Archie:

I've walked back in there while not playing but it did not get my real attention (after never having been back there) UNTIL I got a couple up at the start on former US Amateur champion, Canada's Gary Cown, and then he just put the hammer down on me and our match ended on the 14th green so we just walked back to the clubhouse right down the lane back in there.     

[TEPaul]

"Archie,
Of all the holes, why would someone want to lengthen # 17 ?
It has it's own built in defense for extra long tee shots, the huge bunker short of the green, which is certainly not the ideal spot to approach from."


Patrick:

We'd probably have to ask Crump  why he wanted that hole to be longer than it is now but he did at one point very early on and probably at first before Colt showed up.

But when Colt showed up the 17th hole and green got shifted slightly to the right (from where Crump had it initially) and the tee was placed in front of what would be the waterworks.

However, when Crump was still thinking about turning #16 into a par 5 just before he died I suppose he was also thinking of returning the 17th to the length he once had it as he did make a drawing of the hole around 1917 that was up to 40 yards longer than it is now.

The way the 17th turned out though has a lot of Alision in it including the famous alternative fairway option on the right that is now basically gone (and the green was redesigned from the way Crump built it). If the alternate fairway could be reestablished somehow (although there are numerous obstacles and problems with trying to restore that today) it would make sense as it would allow long players to take a risk by stretching a drive up to that right alternate fairway which would be a considerably longer carry (from a new back tee) compared to the left fairway.


Mike Cirba:

A number of people in fairly recent years have recommended the 17th alternate fairway be restored but there is a fair laundry list of interrelated obstacles and problems involved in doing that today that one pretty much has to be familar with first.

[Patrick_Mucci_Jr]

TEPaul,

Do you think the idea for the right side fairway might have had its roots in the first hole at GCGC ?  ie, longer carry equals better angle of attack into the green, shorter fairway equals more challenging approach

Is Crump on record as having played GCGC ?

[Mike_Cirba]

Pat,

Yes.

Here's an example..

http://www.la84foundation.org/SportsLibrary/AmericanGolfer/1913/ag106f.pdf

[TEPaul]

"TEPaul,
Do you think the idea for the right side fairway might have had its roots in the first hole at GCGC ?  ie, longer carry equals better angle of attack into the green, shorter fairway equals more challenging approach.
Is Crump on record as having played GCGC ?"


Patrick:

Oh man, my ongoing burden of trying to educate you on the architectural history and evolution of PV as well as just golf architecture history in general just seems to have no end, does it? 

I'm pretty sure Crump played GCGC and was probably quite familiar with it particularly since he regularly played the Lesley Cup that began at GCGC in 1905!

But that has nothing to do with the right side fairway on #17 (the now obsolete alternate fairway). That was Alison's suggestion and design in 1921. The green was also redesigned at that time from Crump's original which was one of about 4-5 that were a bit too radical but it sort of looks to me like #17's green was some combination of two iterations Alison offered. I don't believe he was around when it was done but I believe Flynn was with perhaps some help from the Wilsons. He may've overseen the construction of it or perhaps Govan did, Crump's foreman and pro/clubmaker. (There are some PV notes from Govan that are up for auction shortly that may shed some more light on this).

By the way, in his notes that accompany his 1921 hole by hole recommendation Alison even goes into the concept and strategy of the 17th hole including the point and purpose of the alternate right fairway.

When I learned about the alternate right fairway around a decade ago (it seems both GeoffShackelford and Ben Crenshaw figured it out a long time ago within a week of each other but independent of each other) I set out to find out why it went out of use. John Ott told me that Eb Steineger (PV's 50 year greenkeeper) was still alive and he would ask him about it. He also arranged for an interview for me with Steineger which I had in about three weeks time. In the meantime, John went down and talked to him about the alternate fairway and he said the only problem was the hoses didn't reach it very well so they let it go slowly.

Unfortunately, in less than those three weeks Eb Steineger died and I never got to meet him.   

But about five years later I did interview Crump's caddie. Can you believe that since Crump died in 1918?!

[TEPaul]

Patrick:

In reviewing this thread today, I mentioned about 11am that the alternate fairway on #17 was Alison's idea and design and at about 5:30pm today you asked me if Crump got the idea for the alternate fairway from GCGC!!??

You really are hopeless with this stuff as not only have you no idea of some of the important details of PV's architectural history, you can't even understand a simple post! The alternate right fairway was done over three years after Crump died. 

Or should I say, three years SUBSEQUENT  to Crump's death, just like that aerial above was taken subsequent to the removal of trees to the right of the 15th green? 

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